A Former NCUA Chairman’s Perspective on Innovation

0:02 You're listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here, decision makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show. Welcome to Leaders and Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's episode features my conversation with Rodney Hood and a former chairman and current war member of the NCUA. So we got a credit credit union regulator on the podcast. We don't get a lot of actual regulators. I really enjoyed this conversation with Rodney. We went through why that opened up an office of innovation and access and why you think of those two things is importantly combined and put them together and the office. I thought that was a really fascinating We also talked about his Shark Tank program and a regulator, so that's not something I thought would go together. So fascinating conversation about how he thinks about innovation, how innovation can be helpful to consumers, the role of FinTechs, the role of AI in helping broaden both innovation in the space to help the consumers, but also broaden access and help with financial literacy. Think all really important topics.

1:15 Rodney was a fascinating guy and I'm really glad we got to have this conversation. So please enjoy my conversation with Rodney Hood. Rodney, thanks so much for taking the time and join us on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. I'm allowed to be with you, Jeff, and thanks for the kind invitation. Yeah, it's not often I'm going to talk to people who actually work in the regulatory environment on the podcast, so I'm really fascinated to do this. Well, I am too. In any chance to get an opportunity to demystify the regulatory process, I'm all for. Well, I want to. I love demystify, but I want to. When we first talked, do you use the phrase shark tank? And I got to start with that because of all the phrases I thought I would hear coming from somebody working in a federal agency, we have a shark tank, it was not one. So talk to me a little bit about what you're doing in that vein. We'll dive off from there. But that phrase you're stuck in my mind. From our kind, I wrote it down like start with this because it's one in interesting. But Jeff, it is from to start with that shark tank is something. And I'm doing the air quotes because I realized that shart tank has been trademark so I have to do shart tank life isn't the UK was the Dragon's den right exactly, exactly exactly. But Jeff, I think what you're hearing from me, and anytime we speak it's fintech is integral to the ongoing success of the credit union system. I recognize that we as government regulators, no one ever expects us to lead when it comes to innovation.

2:38 They often expect us to follow, so we can be really quick followers and maybe even early adapters. But when it comes to really getting that game changing product out there that really is going to help our communities grow, thrive and prosper, it is through those social entrepreneurs who are typically working in a shart tank or a competitive environment. So I, as many people know, have wanted to really look at ways to broaden financial inclusion throughout our society. I often say, Jeff, that financial inclusion, you know, it's the civil rights issue of our generation, and we're not hearing a lot of tools and products come every day that's going to help that forty percent of American households who's frankly can obtain fourugred dollars in an emergency. So one of the things that I worked on there's a lot of venture capital funding that's now going into fintech that are serving credit unions. There's almost about nine hundred million dollars that I'm aware of that supporting credit unions and fintech. So I banded this idea around with them, why don't you all put together a competition where social entrepreneurs FinTechs that are focusing on financial inclusion can get together and do a sharp tank light event where we get people together, we judge, we give them our opinions. And it was a wonderful way to really sort of get a lot of interest in excitement. And now with my newly launched Innovation office, I have tesked our new head of that office, Charles weis with working with the broader VC community, FinTechs and credit us to see if we can even do

4:12 more the financial inclusion events. And then also I thought we would do them thematically Jeff, so springboarding from financial inclusion and maybe doing something around faster payments, How do we really sort of make sure that we're getting real time payments for these small businesses who really don't have time to wait for the float and things like that nature where we went them paid instantaneously and then maybe we all pivot and do more around digital identity. So I tend to like to think chart tank like events bring people out that I would never be able to find. So that's why I'm so thrilled and more to come on that. So let me ask, I'm really curious how you think of the role of the regulator in this space, because so often I think two things that someone who's been through the startup. One, I got a lot of advice like just stay off the radar and don't you know, don't have to know who you are until you have to, which I thought it was bad advice. And also it feels like the regulator is there to like tell you what you can't do, not figure out what you can to tell me. How you think about the way a fintech or a technology should he be engaging with the regulator, What the regulator's role is as these kind of new technologies are coming out.

5:18 Let me sort of back up with before I go into that, Jeff in CUA National Credit Unit Administration, we are quote unquote the FDIC for the credit union system in the sense that we ensure deposits for our members. So justice the FDIC insures account the jundred and fifty thousand per account. We do the same at the National Credit Unit Administration. But unlike the FDICE, I'm not justin insure. I am a policymaker. That means that we also regulate some forty eight hundred credit unions. That means that they are serving now one hundred and thirty five million members of those institutions, so that's roughly a third of their American public has a credit union account. And JEFF assets to date approximate two point two trillion dollars. So Credit e Is not only have those large assets, but they have large loan volume one point five trillions outstanding and loans. So I as a regulator, I'm a safety and sounders regulator.

6:17 So are the members of my board. We're making sure that we are paving the way for Credit US to have the policies that can keep them safe and sound, where also adhering to the fidelity of consumer protection consumer compliance. So yes, there is a regulatory hat that I'm looking at interest rate, interest rate risk, liquidity risk, all the other things that you expect a regulatory body to do. But because of my having worked for twenty plus years in financial services, I've been blessed to work with a number of Wall Street firms where I've done affordable housing, economic development, commercial lending. I see the role that these lending activities can play with credit unions and the thing, Jeff, I'm such a proponent of fintech because not everyone now is going into the traditional brick and mortar branches of yesterdayear to conduct business. So when I talk about embracing technology and fintech, it's not doing it because it's the luxury.

7:14 I think pre COVID, we all probably thought of fintech and products. It's just inn't that a cute little toy. No, it is going immediately now from a cute little toy to a strategic comparative. So when you hear me as the former chairman of our agency and now board member of our agency, when you hear me being so arduous in my pursuit of fintech. It's not chasing the toy, but it is making sure that credit Enians have the tools to remain vibrant and sustainable in today's environment. One hundred and thirty five million members, six million of those came during the pandemic, and a lot of those folks you all who joined us, they were Zen generation Z, there were millennials. There are folks that really are coming from a digital native environment as opposed to the analog environment of my generation. So I will not have an industry to regulate if credit us are not using these types of tools.

8:05 So that is why it is more of a business imperative, and I would not be setting them up to thrive as twenty first century institutions if I am not giving them the regulatory empowerment and flexibility to embrace these new and margin technologies. So Jeff I launched a series called a Fintech Discussion Series where I meet with FinTechs like yours, and what happens is when a credit e and enters into a relationship with a fintech. That means that when we are doing that natural examination, we can ask about third party providers. We're looking at the lenders with whom they're partnering, and frankly, examiners can be a little risk averse, not saying that they don't like to see change innovation, but if credit e and examiners don't understand the nature of that fintech or the nature of what's going on, they will assume the words and want to shut it down.

8:58 So I recognize that with twelve hundred credit union service organizations, look at those as organizations that support credit unis and their day to day activities. If four hundred or those twelve hundred or FinTechs, I don't want there to be a disconnect between my rhetoric and the exam experience. So every week we bring in a intec in fact your company has presented, we have them come in, we ask questions. I immediately tell the FinTechs, this is not your elevator pitch, this is not shark tank. This is just getting your examiners of your partners comfortable with your compliance and things of that nature. So I am looking at it as forward thinking. We also, Jeff of providing guidance, I mean meeting the credit unions themselves. They now know that we are encouraging them to engage in fintech partnerships because we told them look at these as you would with any other third party. We also gave guidance letters around the use of digital assets and distributed letter technology. These are all tools that today's should array wants to have happened. If they don't see them, they're going to walk. And again, if we don't embrace it, then will I even have an industry to regulate a few years from now. So sorry for such a long winded response, but I wanted to why the lens and under which I am looking at technology and the wonderful role it plays. I love that answer because I do think I've seen that many agencies, the disconnect between the offices of innovation and then what happens when an examiner walks into a banker

10:30 credit union of the field and go, yeah, we just talked to the opposite relation. They were all on board. No, oh, that's that disconnect can be really jarring for the financial institutions on the other end of it. And so it's great to hear how you're You're right, it can be jarring. And I don't know if any of the listeners of today's podcasts. Have ever watched this movie The Exorcist with Linda Blair many years ago, and as she has that head spinning exercise, and you have the head spinning, you'll have credit Union board. Since CEOs and chief lending officers all want to embrace the technology and then they hear from me one day, but then there's that disconnect. So one of the things that I'm doing is my new head of Innovation is going to be doing a road show where he's going to be traveling around the country to do listening sessions. We're going to have him at some of the venture capital events. I also am working with him. You mentioned the other offices of innovation in CUA. Is really fortunate, Jeff, and that we were among the last of the financial regulatory agencies to create the new office. So the FDIC head one, the OCC head one, the Office of the Coumptural Accuracy that's what that is, Federal Reserve Commodities Future Trading Commission. Almost every agency had one, with the exception of ours. And I want our viewers to know I was not creating the office because I wanted us to have our own just to keep up. I wanted to have our own because I saw from some of the things that they were doing, I knew what we could do differently. Sometimes the agencies within government they have an

12:01 office of Innovation there that agencies best kept secret. I don't want our Office of Innovation to be a secret. So that's why he's going to be doing listening tours, op eds, helping convene FinTechs. Jeff, I'm also wanting him to look at some tech sprints. How do we find opportunities to have a product a problem. Put some FinTechs in a room, and maybe a week later they tell us what those solutions are. Another piece is sandboxing. I just recently present it to a group of building societies in the UK. Their version of credit use is what they call building societies there. So I present it to the United the Financial Conduct Authority that's their prudential regulator, and we talked about sandboxing. So, Jeff, your earlier question you talked about the regulatory piece. So one of the things that I tell folks is let's do some regulatory sandboxes where we have that fintech meet with us at NCUA.

12:58 Let us determine what may make sense from a regulatory and compliance standpoint to work out the impediments. The last thing you want to have happen is for that social entrepreneur to go live and then we find out that they are not adhering to fair living a fair housing protocols, and then you have that bad experience. The investors are upset because that fintech has gotten a fine or warning. But let's do the regulatory sandboxing. I think we've seen some wonderful models of that for my peers and London and also the folks in Singapore. So that's when you were saying earlier that people were saying stay and keep your head doubt. No, let that regulator know so they can work with you. And again we are not their prudential regulator. But again at the end of the day, I want one hundred and thirty five million members of our credit uns that we oversee to have a seamless, frictionless, frictionless experience when they're dealing at that credit end, and FinTechs can do that. So no, let's work together with them in partnership for the greater good. Yeah, I will just plug that as well, because I did say we got a lot of advice that was to keep off the radar, and you know, we did the opposite. This will this will amuse you. But we were you know, when we started doing our first AI and we said, well, how do you think about fair lending? We said, well we should call the CFPB and being new on the job, kind of your examiner point like, we walked into the enforcement office and the local but that was probably not the best place to raise your hand and go, hey, we're doing something here.

14:28 We'd like to understand the regulatory environment, you know, like maybe the Office of Innovation was a better for sure. I think just then there's a shared idea and things of that nature. So Jeff again, I want our folks to know, reach out to your regulator, get to know them. Also, I'm going to be asking my innovation head to do roundtables even with his peers. You know. A credit union solution around using data to make more informed decisions. It's something that I think the banks would want using artificial intelligence and machine learning to help with suspicious act they reports and bank secrecy out compliance. Those are things. So I'm want to be looking for shared solutions that we can bring all of our offices of innovation together. I also would like for them to look at doing some office hours. So again, it took me two and a half years to find our head of innovation because I had plenty of people who wanted to take that role when I was offering it to have more of a compliance approach, and their approach that was just say no, and I wanted someone who can just say yes and get there without any degradation and asset quality, compliance protocols and anything of that nature. So I hope that in the days a hit that you will get to meet our new head of innovation. I want to dive into the office you set up, because it's not just the Office of Innovation, if I understand right, You made it the Office of Innovation and Acts, which is an interesting pair of things to put together. So talk to me a little bit about how you see innovation and access kind of coming together and being kind of two sides of the same points. It's not mostly offices of innovation or not innovation and

16:00 access. They're just offices of innovactually, right, And Jeff, I knew that that was going to be something that I was going to be running counter to what other agencies were doing. My background just a little bit to be quick. I was a missionary in Africa. I lived in Zambia and Zimbabwe. I thought I was going to become an episcopal priest and I was just going to do a lot around saving lives and things of that nature. But unlike the movies, I never was jostled for my bid at four am with lightning and thunder and then just waking up and actually like, well, gee, I guess I'm not wanted in this bill. So I went into finance. So I've been in banking financial services for the better part of twenty five years now, but working in affordable, healthy economic development, urban renewal.

16:45 So what my priest later said was, first of all, no one has to wake up call at four am to bolts of thunder and lightning, So where did you get that from other than movies? And then also he wanted me to know that I needed were the clerical caller to really make a difference in people's lives. And I have long been a champion for serving the under serve. So where the scriptures tell us to serve the least amongst us and to serve underserved marginalized communities, I get to do that. When I was the Crara offer Sarah for a Wall Street bank or when I was working in corporate responsibility for another Wall Street entity. So Jeff along the way, I have come to take on financial inclusion as the civil rights issue of my generation.

17:26 I would say collectively our generation. Credit scores determine where you get to live, which ultimately determines where you get to educate your children. Credit scores determine where one gets to even get the car that they want to drive to him from work. And credit scores also, lamentably in some instances, determine where you get to work, because without a good credit score, you may not even be able to get the job of choice. So credit score so much really dictate one's life journey. So I have made financial inclusion a major pivoting point for me, and since I do oversee a banking or regulatory agency for credit unions, I have made sure that we are helping make small dollar loans available. I reference a data point early on with our conversation. Forty percent of American households can obtain fo untre dollars, an emergency overlay that with a community of color sixty percent, So from the most recent FDIC unbanked Underbanked research, sixty percent of minority households cannot obtain four hundred dollars in the event of an emergency. And then if you keep going to overlay that with a community or disability, it's eighty percent. So yes, eighty percent of communities of color with a disabled individual in that household cannot obtain fo hundred dollars.

18:36 So I have taken this issue of excess. How do you make housing accessible, loans accessible, credit accessible. So what we are doing is following the George Floyd Murder I pinned it up ed in the Wall Street Journal. I talked about banks and credit unions coming together to spur healing through financial inclusion through financial education. I know you and I are recording today's podcast in a for with it being National Fear Lending Month and also National Financial Literacy Months, so as Fair Housing Month and Financial Literacy Months. So we're celebrating those two things. So I wrote an op ed what I called for these individuals and credit in some banks to work together. But you know what Jeff, I mean.

19:21 Yes, the op ed was nice, but we needed something more demonstrable than that. So that is where I worked with my senior leaders here and I created the Access Initiative, and that stands for advancing communities through credit education, stability and support. That means that we're going to have a dedicated person who's helping credit dans learn more about financial education, how to distribute that to their members, How do we bring on financial coaching, how do we find not for profit foundations who may want to do match savings to help that person who's never had an account before begin to see the benefits of savings. So we created the Access Initiative. Again. It was someone once said that a compassion meets empathy, that's when you really get to have demonstrable actions. So I was really delighted to bringing forth the compassion and the empathy with the demonstrable result through access. And when I started seeing fintech and other companies that were working around this space, a lot of the social entrepreneurs, Jeff wanted to cure some of these eels as well. And if there's anything I think that the George Floyd tragedy has done is catalyzed a lot of folks were wanting to invest in underserved, under resource marginalized communities, and nowhere was that more apparent than through the fintech community. So I wanted to marry innovation with access because it's intentionality. It is saying we're not just innovating because it's luxurious and cool and glamorous and sexy. Which I know that's what you enjoyed about it because you were probably one of those early pioneers in this glamorous, sexy space.

20:52 But I am looking at innovation to spur greater access. So that's why we do have the Office of Invasion and Access Match together. Now again, there may be opportunities where they're looking at things that don't fit under the access umbrella the day. I think when we have that intentionality, people are knowing as to what I want the byproduct to be. Yeah, I mean it to be to be honest. That's what really what drove us into the space initially when we say what's the problem in the world that we saw that cause us to start the company was really there are a lot of people who deserve credit who can't get it or a charge too much for it, mostly because we as an industry aren't good at understanding that they're not as big a credit risk as maybe their credit score indicates, and that that's costing people either access to opportunity or it's increasing the price of that access in terms of the cost of credit. In a society where credit is is really required to access many of the opportunities that we want to make available, whether that's higher education or housing or a car to get to a job, that credit is really credit, even the job itself. We require that in some instances. And if I may, I take a very broad approach when I look at diversity and underserved, So I'm talking of course load and moderate income, but I'm also talking about those rural communities, those tribal communities. All I'm talking about disabled and differently abled populations, and also justice involved individuals as well, folks who may have gone through the criminal justice system, made their debt to society, but unfortunately, like Heshteprinne from the Scarlet Letter, they're still wearing that scarlet letter.

22:25 So finding ways to bring them into the financial mainstream, finding ways to get them financial inclusions. So those are all of the folks that we are wanting to work with with this new access initiative. So I'm really proud of it, and in fact, I do have a person that's been hired for that role as well. And again, the Office of Innovation and Access, they're working seamlessly, and again I'm really happy about being able to create that opportunity. Let me ask you one other thing, what are the things you're most excited about in that access? We talked about the lack of availability of small dollar loans. You know a lot of people who need that couple hundred dollars in an emergency end up turning to payday lending. I know there's people working out Are there things you see or particularly for the banks credit unions that are listening, like opportunities technologies say hey, this is a thing that can really help increase access or assisted in your ability to work with communities that might be less traditionally advantaged. Like what are you seeing out there that makes you excited about the future. I'm really excited at you all when I travel around the fifty states of our country, when I'm meeting with credit unions and other state regulators, and when they talk about how now many of the states are requiring financial literacy and financial education to graduate, I am really excited about that because there are a number of individuals you all, where people are not teaching their parents about children about financial literacy and financial education. I don't want there to be these opportunities where these children in high school students they are going off to college and they are signing up for a free credit card because they get

23:55 a free T shirt. And trust me, that five dollar T shirt is not worth being saddled with debt for most of your professional career. So I'm really excited that financial literacy and financial capability are really really being taught in some of the different high schools. And again, I understand that there are a lot of districts around the country that are really making that a requirement, and I think that's so important. I'm also excited that I'm starting to see an emergence and credit unions, of high school credit unions. That means that credit unions are taking some of their resources and putting a branch in a high school and letting the high school. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I was in Lincoln, Nebraska. Why I was with a group of ten year olds who were taking their allowances and putting in the credit union and they were doing all the appropriate work around knowing your customer and Bank Secrecy Act.

24:45 And again, the ten year olds had a minor grasp, but what it takes to run an institution. So I'm excited and very bullish about the growth of financial literacy and education in high schools, the fact that our credit unions stepping up to the plate and making it possible for people as early as ten years of age to have access to credit unions that they are owning and operating themselves. I'm also very excited about just the fact that we are seeing a number of denovo credit unions that are coming. So that means that these are new chartered entities who are saying, hey, we see some momentum. We love the excitement, and a lot of them I wanted to be digitally native. So again, many of them may never have a brick and mortar presence of yesteryear, which is what my generation is accustomed to. So the fact that there's excitement about credit unison, and I'll tell you what the excitement is, Jeff, I probably should have talked about this at the onset. Credit unions are owned by the members, so that means that those hundred and thirty five million people that I reference as having a credit union account, that means that they have all invested five dollars a minimum to join the credit union, which gives them a shared governance of that credit union. That means that one share one bode. So whether you have five dollars in your credit union or up to the in short maximum two hundred and fifty, you all get one boat when it comes to looking at governance and your board members. But also credit unions they grew out of necessity following the Depression, when the hard work and men and women from the automobile plants and manufacturing entities they could not get

26:15 traditional main street financing just because they were considered the lower income of their generations. So what did they do. They galvanized. They reached into their pockets and took whatever change they had and they started lending it to each other. So out of that grew America's system today of credit use, or the system of cooperative credit. What I'm trying to picture here for you all is that it all grew out of people helping people. So now, nearly a century later, that ethos still is embodied every day. So when I mentioned those six million people joined over the pandemic, it was Generation Z was millennials. Because credit enians are purpose mission driven institutions. If there's anything that this younger generation cares about is the ability to make a difference. They want to know is their institution investing in underserved, marginalized and credit unions do that not because of some of the government regulations that many instances do require banks to do that.

27:12 In fact, I had a role. I was a Community of Investment Act officer, but not governed by that. So the fact is that I'm seeing excitement around this emergence now of people wanting to create their own credit unions. There was an African American sorority that just created a credit union. I was there to meet with them. There is an Episcopal church in New York that has just created a new credit union. There was a tribal group in Montana. So we are seeing, even in the midst of some of the headwinds that I know that all the viewers are aware of and financial services, even in the midst of those, there is a port in the storm where folks are wanting to see the value of owning mission based, purpose driven institutions.

27:55 And that's what makes me excited and bullish about the future. Jeff, I love it, and I love the I mean I love all that and people helping people as such. A that was one of the fascinating things for someone coming from the technology Not that the technology issue's not interested in helping people, but I think there's that perspective of bankers that comes from Wolf of Wall Street and whatever. Maybe you're run in with an investment banker and you know, and then when you when you come to the credit union community are all equally. I think the community banking community, you really get to people that feel a lot more like it's a wonderful life, that are they're trying to help our community and do the right thing. And that was It's always great to see. And I love your statements on financial literacy because I felt like it's for many years, like it's criminal that you can let students graduate from high school and have no base understanding of even simple economic concepts like you know aprs and interest rates and what compound or simple interest and what they're what a credit card? I run it up and then what does it really mean and how much is it going to cost? Like it's just it's terrible that people are that we're relying exclusively on families to pass along that knowledge and not providing it to our children because it's it's crucial knowledge to be able to operate in the in the modern economy. And Jeff, it really is. And if I can go a step further, and many people think it's the communities of color, it's those lodomotored incomes communities where the families are not sitting around the table and talking to their children about these topics. I beg to differ with that. I want folks to know I have been fortunate to visit some of the credit unions at the IVY Leagues. We have Ivy League credit unions.

29:18 We have collegists in California with credit unions, and I want you to know that the students that are at those prestigious schools also have never had a parent sit down with them. So this is a dad who may be CEO of a Wall Street firm, or whose mom may be a nuclear physicist. But the point is, I want folks to realize that it's not just something for lodomotored income or minority communities. In fact, Jeff, I had a CEO and this is of a I'm not going to name the Wall Street firm, but this father best borderline apoplectic that he was at some event with his son and the son was using the debit card and the credit card. He said, well, son, it's the same if he said to the father, but it's the same thing, debit and credit card. It has the same numbers, it has the same insignia. No, those are totally different.

30:04 So this is uh, that's offspring of someone who, let's just say, kind of knows a thing or two about credit. But for some reason, you don't teach these concepts through osmosis to your off springs. So I want folks to know that no matter what your income level is or educational attainment, these are all things that people can learn from because I sometimes think people just think it's just one group of people to know. I've seen it come full throttle throughout all levels of society. It's just something that we just need to spend time on it. Again, what a better time than now, with it's being national financial literacy, want to at least talk about it. Jack. It is amazing that and not just the kids of the finance of it, that the number of well educated professionals I run across it just don't you know, they find out I'm in the finance space and they have just basic questions and you go, I know, like, how do you get by in life without knowing these things? But we don't. It's not like not just a high school or you can get through college grad school and never have taken a single of course on economics or personal financing. It's yeah, what it means to look at the credit card and again that five dollars t shirts that they're giving you because you're taking out a credit card. And I do have to tell you, I have a pet peoplehen ever a fly and you're the first group that I've ever mentioned this to you, and I have to I'm pretty mild mannered, is I hope your audience can tell. But if there's one thing that gives me othelli's rage from Desdemona, and that is when I'm on a flight and we are about to land and you're looking at your messages and they start with the credit card solicitations. The flight attendants are walking

31:38 around giving everyone who raises their hand that once, and I'm like, no, you're setting them up for this unexpected, unrealistic expectation that all it takes is to get a credit card. But you're not coupling it with any financial literacy financial education, and the reason I get voted on apoplectic when I see that it's almost not showing any respect for what we do in financial services, whether we are regulators or whether we're working at banks or credit eians. It just makes I don't want to say, a mockery out of what we do in terms of extending credit, and I just think it just cheapens the experience. So I've got it off my chest that I just wish that they would not do that because it just sends the role message that that financial services just about handing on a flyer and then you go home and magically you're you're getting this account stop of some sort. It doesn't it all gets paid for, right. I Mean that's one of the things every time my kids are in a casino or whatever, and I'm going, you know, I go, people win money at these games that I go, you see this really fancy building you're walking around in. It didn't come because most people make money playing the games. It came because people exactly well, Jeff, but now they're absolutely right, I hear you. So that's all there were reason around financial literacy education coaching and podcasts like this, and again, there are some FinTechs that are creating like training modules that can be done via the iPhone or the Andrew I'm not making an endorsement iPhone or Android, but then you can access the tools and things of that nature. So I'm really glad that the fintech

33:12 community is embracing some of these Around education, it needs to be ongoing. It's not like turning it on and off like a faucet. It needs to be ongoing and really incocated throughout all areas. I think of society absolutely a nice way to end the conversation in Financial Literacy Month to talk a little bit about the importance to financial Maybe we both ranted a little bit now, but it's an important topic, right. I got three questions I ask everybody at the end of this podcast, Son, I'm gonna give them to you now. Okay, First, what's the best career advice you've ever gotten? The best career advice I've ever received is recognizing that not every promotion has to be a promotion. Sometimes you can have a lateral move, So don't think of your career as being linear. We want to go from associate to managing director in two years. Sometimes you may need to do a few lateral moves to build out your core competencies, to also learn about a different team looking at different ways to problem solve. And I would say in my early days, I looked at a lot of my career progression around it being so linear, and I recognized it as I got sort of the mid level that sometimes you can do that lateral move that's going to expose you to a totally different product or totally different way of thinking, and that's really helpful. So everyone look at some lateral moves, not everything as linear, and also volunteer for projects as well. That can also help you build out a skill set that you may be lacking for projects and look for the lateral lateral opportunities. I always

34:45 love that. Maybe maybe it's an overly quote with the Steve Jobs commenced whore we so you can only understand a career looking back, like so you got to kind of you know, if you plot it out too far ahead, it's never going to play out that way. And you've got to be open to the interesting moves that are a available, the opportunities that are there, not just the one thing. So I'm supposed to be vice president next. I gotta gotta get that, you know, exactly, and that creates disappointing opportunities. And almost for every role that I've had, it's almost found me. I don't think that I've ever really sought a role outside of when you're like in college, when you have the career fair and you're sort of working with the firms that come to the campus. And for me it was at the University of North Carolia there Chapel Hill. But after that you all people start finding you, and your network sort of creates opportunities. So I tell folks, just be receptive to whatever comes your way. And I've also been blessed even with my work in public service. As you know, I've served now in two different presidential administrations, and one does not just call the president and say, hey, pick me. It's just any number of variables.

35:46 I know when to this date has ever told me how each time I've been selected, Jeff. But but I was amenable to the phone call. I tell folks a day, I said, you never know who's going to call, and sometimes part of life is just showing up, but show up being prepared. I think it's a big help love it. It's like a question, what's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten about the banking sector or the This is a kind of interesting one to ask you that, But the consumer banking space. The best piece of advice I've gotten about the consumer banking space is that bricks and mortar may be disappearing. And we've been talking about that now for about the past ten fifteen years. And the advice that I've been given us again to embrace the technology, to embrace some of the handheld devices, because many people can now use those devices to get a loan, to make a payment. And the big advice now is if you're going to really replace replace bricks and mortar, what are you going to do to still be tethered to the customer? In my case the credit you member, so as credit need for embracing digital platforms, what are they doing to still define their value prop what are they doing to really show that they are building a relationship as supposed to the transactional aspects of aspects associated with a member. So I think the best advice is recognize that that bricks and mortar may be a thing of the past, But what do we do to still build the relationship and have that sticky feeling. And I think that's the one advice. And I learned about that twenty years ago and we've been hearing about it, but now I think that really is manifesting itself. So not saying that bricks and

37:19 mortars will be completely gone, but I think that the best advice has start thinking about how do you build a culture and an identity and a brand. Recognize that you may not see those folks face to face as often as we used to. Yeah, that's it. I think they are necessarily disappearing. But people don't want to have to come into the branch to do things they don't need to come into the branch to do and need, meaning that one actually talk to the person, not forcing them to do it to depositive chapter or whatever it might be exactly and when we do have them come in now, Jeff. So that also means that if you're going to be able to use the video tellers and the automatic tailor machines for a lot of those routine businesses, that means that we in financial services, whether it be banks or is that means that now that person that is in the branch for those face to