Approaching Community Banking Through First Principles

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You are listening to Leaders in Lending
from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping

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consumer lenders grow their programs and improve
their product offerings. Each week, here,

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decision makers in the finance industry offer
insights into the future of the lending

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industry, best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the

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show. Welcome to Leaders in Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner.

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This week's episode features my conversation with
Daryl Kaffey, SVP of Retail at Webster

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five. I think it's really interesting
conversation. We delve into his different approach

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to management, coming from a JD
background versus a more traditional finance or business

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background, how he thinks that leads
him to approach things differently. We talked

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about what he calls a shift to
a larger lender mentality within the context of

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a smaller bank, how you can
execute that strategy both at a people and

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a technology level, and what that
really means to think and act like a

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larger lender, maybe one a little
bit more resource We talked a lot about

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how you make smart decisions, how
you think about balancing expertise and history and

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knowledge internally with data and insight that
might be coming from data and build the

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infrastructure to enable sound databased decisions.
He's got a fun story for the best

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career advice. So this was a
really fun conversation. I hope you enjoy

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it as much as I did.
This is my conversation with Daryl Caffey.

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Daryl, welcome to the podcast,
and thanks for making the time to join

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us today. Yeah, thank you, Jeff, really appreciate the invite.

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Looking forward to it. Yeah.
I like to start all my interviews off

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with the kind of question about like, talk to me about the your history

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and how you got to wear your
acts. I feel like everybody has their

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own winding paths, usually not a
straight line to the banking industry and then

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in the lending space. So talk
to me a little bit about how you

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got here. Yeah, sure thing. Well, you know, it's funny.

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I graduated law school in twenty twelve, which at the time was in

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the midst of a recession. So
I remember getting out of school looking for

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law jobs, and what was so
tough was at that time most of the

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law jobs out there were no longer
for people waiting for bar results. They

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wanted people who had already passed the
bare so I had a whole time landing

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an internship, got a few offers, but nothing that was really that attractive,

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and I ended up spreading out my
job search, so I started looking

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at the medical profession, the banking
profession, really industries that at that time

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are doing fairly well. So I
figured I kind of dipped my toe in

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both. Oddly enough, I got
two job offers, probably a week or

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two after I really started looking outside
of just the legal space, one in

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insurance sales and the other one at
a slightly discounted salary to get into a

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post closing at a bank that specialized
in mortgages. So I weighed the two

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options, and I'm thinking, you
know, I see some of the insurance

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sales guys, and a lot of
them that are really happy and excited.

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There's a lot of them that looked
pretty sad. I looked at the bankers,

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and I kind of decided that it
was probably a better choice up front

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to get into banking, especially because
I thought there were more legal opportunities down

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the road. And that's where I
started. You know, I got that

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opportunity as a post closer and the
mortgage business, and I was happy to

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get my start there. That's fascinating. I love the description of looking at

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the people. I remember my dad
said he was choosing business schools and he

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looked at an East Coast school and
everybody's in like coast suits and ties.

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Looked at the West Coast school,
every reason shorts and polos, and went

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that one looks good. I like
doing. Those people look happy over there.

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We're gonna do that. Yeah,
Well, you know what's funny about

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that. As I navigated my career, I started getting doing a little bit

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of legal work, doing a little
bit of banking work, and which you

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really start to notice is at a
higher level the bankers didn't have a lot

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of fun. A lot of the
attorneys man the older they get, and

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as they kind of navigated those early
years in the profession, I saw the

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look on those phaces too, And
that's why I'm still in banking. You

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could say I always look at one
of these things, right, I talked

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to people. I won't comment on
legal or banking professions specifically, but Kassa,

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would you want your kids to do
what you do? You ask a

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doctor, he asked a lawyer,
you ask a banker, and the people

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who say no, you go,
that's probably a that's a pretty sure sign

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that it's not a great spot to
be the people. Yeah, I love

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for my kids to do this.
You Okay, it's probably pretty good.

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They're pretty happy. They liked the
life they got surprising where people got a

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good wind and look at it.
You know, I wouldn't want my kids

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to go into what I'm doing.
Oh, I mean, these deals have

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all changed. It's not like they
made necessarily decisions, but they turned out

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different. How do you mean the
JD path in is really interesting that maybe

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the more typical path into banking is
the NBA Finance accounting degree kind of area.

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How do you think you approach the
space differently coming from a you know

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the background of having a law degree
and a legal kind of mind and approach

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versus what you see for a more
traditional like you know, MBA's in the

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banking space. Yeah, that's a
really good question. You know what's interesting

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is, you know, I'll focus
on just my own background for a moment

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here. Having a j D has
given me perspective of really all all sides,

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all angles, you know, So
a lot of times when I'm faced

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with an issue, I have a
pretty easy view of both the pros and

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cons of either side of the argument. So when you get into like a

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loan level discussion, whether it's an
underwriter debating something over an issue with a

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loan officer, I tend to immediately
have that other person's perspective in mind.

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And I found that for not only
decision making, but for staff development and

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training purposes. It's really been useful
for me to just understand both the perspective

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against someone's opinion, the perspective for
someone's opinion, and then ultimately try to

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make a decision that makes the most
sense for both parties. From my experience

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in banking, and to your point, a lot of people who have the

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MORGE over that NBA background, they
tend to probably make really sound business decisions

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in a vacuum. And I say
that obviously no slide on anyone with the

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NBA, but the mentality tends to
be this is the right business decision.

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We're doing this, and we're doing
this right now, and sometimes that has

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a detrimental impact on staff, on
decision making and perspective. So I personally

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thought that I had a different approach, an approach that sometimes still frustrates people.

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Right because the last thing someone wants
to hear when they bring an issue

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to me is the other side of
the argument. But ultimately, I really

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like how it's helps me kind of
make decisions and kind of guide my path

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I like that. That's really interesting. I do think this. You know,

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one of the underappreciated skills is the
ability to really see the perspective of

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the others. So so many of
us are wose are listening with the intent

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to respond with versus listening with the
intent to understand. So you're kind of

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just already gone. I hear what
you're saying, but all I'm doing is

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calculating, like how do I I
commence to You're wrong? You should think

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what I think in my head is
supposed to going. Let me really understand

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where you're coming from, really get
the full you know, by you know,

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for a minute, buy and mentally
that argument and see and then like

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understandable. Bit. It's a it's
a really interesting comment. I think it's

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a it's an underappreciated skill I think
in the business world. Yeah, I

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couldn't agree more. Now. One
of the things we talked about when you

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and I chatted earlier was this kind
of like you described it as being in

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a smaller bank but shifting to a
larger lender mentality, and I thought it

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was a really interesting phase. I
wrote it down in my note. So

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tell me what does it mean to
you to shift to a larger lender mentality,

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bigger lender. I think it's what
you actually said, But you know,

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what does that What do you mean
when you think that or say that.

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Yeah, it's a really good or
at least interesting topic. When you

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look at how banking is usually done
across community banks, it's usually the same.

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You know, a heavy instas song
commercial lending. Sumer lending typically gets

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a little less infrastructure, less technology
investments. Into a point when you really

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want to compete at a larger scale, you can't afford to do that.

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So when you look at some of
the bigger players, you know, the

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quick ends of the world, those
different types of organizations, the reality is

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their technology is built so strong,
it's built internal and they can easily pivot.

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So for a community bank, if
you want to really attract the client

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of the future, which sadly is
really the client of today now, you

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have to be at the forefront of
technology that also bleeds to recruiting. You

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know, if you want to bring
on new loan o virginators, especially from

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either millennial generation of gen Z,
their perspective is going to be, hey,

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we've got to leave with technology and
service and let that kind of carry

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the way too long. I think
a lot of community banks have sat down,

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looked at their balance sheet, realize
that the majority of their client basis

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some of the older generations, and
then just focused on them because the reality

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is, if I look at the
deposit of the bank, I bet they

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hold the majority of them. But
when you've got to start to think through

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is well, how do I get
to those future deposits, those future relationships,

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Especially as our business becomes so transactional, you really have to have the

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technolog oology and the ability to pivot
that you oftentimes see with large institutions that

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may have a whole staff dedicated to
technology. Not when I think of large

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banks, the ability to pivot is
not the first phrase that comes to us,

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at least for a large five.
Maybe some the large fintet lender is

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the more the quickens of the rockets, but most banks, I don't think

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it would be how do you think
about building the ability to do. That

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means that a technical infrastructure is that
a team approach is at a management style,

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this kind of ability to iterate,
to change, to adapt to changing

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circumstances. Where do you think that
comes from? And how does one go

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about building that capacity within an organization? Yeah, you know, I think

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it's almost a layered approach. Always
starts with the people, you know,

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don't. I'm a big believer that
no matter what you're trying to do,

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the biggest variable that leads to either
success or any kind of unpredictable outcome tends

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to be the individuals working on it. So at a high level in any

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organization, the mindset has to be
we want to see this business line grow.

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We want to leverage the most or
the best or whatever intertwine mixed between

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a technology possible. And that's usually
the foundation, Right, we actually want

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to do this, and we want
to do this this way. We want

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to be innovative. I think a
lot of people check off that box because

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innovation is such a buzzword now that
everyone kind of thinks. With that,

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the next step becomes, all right, let's actually get the technology, at

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least try to get the technology that
allows for that innovation that's usually when most

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people get hit with reality for the
first time. So I mentioned those big

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banks ability to pivot. The reality
is they just have the ability to fund

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the opportunity should they arise, right, and when you look at a smaller

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organization, that really becomes that first
chile. Of course we want to innovate.

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Well, what happens when we see
what the bottom line of innovation looks

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like? Can we actually do it? So then you try to have that

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technology, you try to get it, and let's just say for whatever example,

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that it ultimately works out and you're
able to get that technology. That

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last piece of the milestone goes back
to the people again, right, not

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only people who implement that technology,
but having to buy in an organization level

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to really really run with it and
start to integrate it into what you do

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as a bank. So to me
begins with the people. Then the next

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chund is actually getting that technology.
And then that third piece is actually making

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sure the technology is working to its
full capabuilding and then with it is work

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and then you still have the support
of people to kind of take it to

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the next level, because the last
thing you want to do is just get

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technology. Say you're done and assume
it'll just all work out. It doesn't

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always work that way, never works
that way in my experience, battle plan

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ever survives first contact with it.
I want to say customer, not intimate,

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but that you know, like the
deployment never goes the way you think.

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I'm curious how you build the culture
or incentives around that particular piece that

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kind of like it goes out the
door. We got it done, great,

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now we're lying to go. It
didn't quite work the way we thought.

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You know, many places that's like, okay, Darrel, you had

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this project and it failed, like
black Mark in the book next to you

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in the HR system, it didn't
work out, and other organizations go,

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hey, it was a good idea. It's still a good idea. We

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gotta like, we gotta iterate,
like kudos to you for getting it out

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the door, and now here's your
chance to go and iterate and get it

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to a successful place, which often
takes a little bit of like, you

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know, the market didn't react quite
the way we thought, so we'll do

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this, and the customers had these
issues, and we're going to do that,

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and you kind of iterate your way
to it. How do you think

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about building a culture that's supportive of
that kind of iteration, because I think

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so, I think it's really hard
to do that, right, the incentives,

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this history of the organization to run
the other way. Yeah. Well,

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you know what's interesting. I'm a
big believer in creativity and the power

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that it comes with, and to
a degree, a lot of people tend

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to separate business from that creative thought
process. Now, so a lot of

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times when I'm working in technology,
one of the most important things I try

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to instill and at least the project
team, is that we have to be

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as creative as possible. We've got
to assume that this technology should let us

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do anything that we can imagine it
can do, and then let the technology

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ultimately tell us it can right.
So, to me, step one is

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really kind of building that mentality of
we can do anything. I feel like

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I'm like in front of an elementary
school class, but really that's the thought

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process. We can do anything,
the technology can do anything. And when

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you have that mentality, sure you're
gonna hit roadbumps, you always do.

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But if your baseline is telling you, hey, we can overcome this roadblock,

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and this vision I have long term
can be achieved. I think you

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can kind of fight through some of
that initial backlash that comes with any failure.

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So I'm a big believer in kind
of emphasizing creativity, making sure the

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team knows, let's have a vision
for what we want to do. What

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I'm not a big proponent of is
being placed in confines up front. So

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I worked on products in the past
where no day one, they say,

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you know what, we're going to
limit who gets to see the back end

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functionality on day one. To me, when you make those decisions, while

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oftentimes the safer decision, it prevents
you from reaping the benefits of that one

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person's bright idea that just needed to
know something could have been a possibility.

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So to me, kind of going
back to your question all about creativity,

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I'm making sure that management knows up
front how important that is. I mean,

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the staff is actually executing knows how
important that is. And then once

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you launch, everyone in between is
going to think the same way. If

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you do not like something, or
think something is working in a way that

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feels less efficient, it's a good
chance we're just not leveraging the technology the

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right way. Bring up those topics, let's have those conversations and see what

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we discover from it. A lot
of times you discuss or that it's a

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problem that can be easily solved,
and maybe it can be harder to solve,

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but even in those cases you can
start to build that roadmap to solve.

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It's such a great point and I
always reminded that so often people who

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aren't as deep in the technology can
have this intuition about which problems are hard

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or easy for technology to solve,
and they're often completely backwards. They'll go,

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we probably that's probably really hard,
and the tech guys go, that's

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actually very easy. We can do
that, no problem. And sometimes it's

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the opposite. We go, this
seems like it should be a really easy

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fixed in text. I guess,
yeah, I know it does. But

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it's but that the ability to bring
it up and the willingness to engage in

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that discussion can be so critical because
sometimes you go, hey, it would

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really be awesome if just this,
but I'm sure it's like too hard to

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do, and you not even difficult, like we'll do it this afternoon,

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and that that's far. It can
be really interesting and powerful. Yeah it's

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not easy, and you know,
buying into two sharing ideas seems simple,

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but I actually think it's always been
one of the most challenging things. I

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think there's always that inclination that,
hey, my idea is and good people

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are going to think I'm not smarter, I don't have ideas, so people

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tend to hold back. So I'm
really trying to fool that out of people.

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Sometimes there's always a challenge, But
yeah, I'm a big believer that

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you've got to try to there any
particular technique plactics you used to pull out

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those creative ideas pull people's get them, you know, into more of what

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a comfort zones the wrong way,
but getting them more comfortable to share that

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the crazy Because you're right, we
all have the like self critical guy in

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the back of our head on,
I don't say that they're gonna laugh at

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you. I have the same thing
with questions. Don't ask that question.

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I could think you're idiot and I
go, uh, you know, so

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you don't like ask the question that
you don't understand something because you just don't

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want to look like you didn't know. I think the same is true and

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creativity. Don't want to you get
that same same voice your head go on,

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I don't know man, I don't
don't ask that when don't say that?

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When I said, maybe, how
do you get people out of that?

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What's your like just tactically, how
do you how do you like in

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a meeting or in a conversation,
like, how do you get people out

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of that? Zune? Yeah,
we do a big picture. I'm a

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believer and I tend to say this
a lot to my team. If you've

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been doing something for two years,
probably outdating right, so to a point,

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I tend to try to drive home
that concept of what are we doing.

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Let's not assume that because the person
who trained the person who trained me

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did it this way, it's the
best way. There's a high likelihood that

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that was a task or a product
that lacked innovation throughout that time period.

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So really being critical of what you're
doing, asking yourself if you really envisioned

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how you would do it, And
honestly, Jeff, it's all conversation,

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you know. I was talking to
one of my team members a few weeks

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ago, maybe a month ago,
and we were talking about innovation and the

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biggest challenge that I tended to actually
with innovation or creativity, however you want

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to do it is experience and knowledge. Right, You know, if you

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could somehow just suspend what you know
about this topic, banking, mortgage,

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lending, whatever it's going to be
for a moment, then just ask yourself,

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how would you do it? My
guess is you would probably do it

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differently than it's being done today.
I think the same thing could be said

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for just about anyone. If I
pulled someone off the street, be it

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a doctor or a teacher, whomever, and said, hey, let's close

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a mortage today, how do you
want to do it? The chance of

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them drawing a set up death that
issues this closures and a processor and then

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an underwriter like, there's no way
they're going to draw that as that process,

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So to a point, you almost
got to suspend the knowledge that you've

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carried the things that lead you to
think you're gonna ask a stupid question.

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Hey, I've been around long enough
to know you don't say stuff like this.

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Well, what if you weren't around
that long? Would you have just

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said it? Then? So,
to a point, suspend the knowledge,

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try to get away from what we
feel as our comfort zone or our specialty,

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and then just start looking at things
with a fresh set of eyes and

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saying, hey, how would I
do this? Is it necessary that two

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people are working in tandem like this? Does this really require this mix of

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operations and sales? And honestly,
Jeff, most of the time the answer

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is yes. But once in a
blue moon you tend to come up with

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a no, and then you really
start to kind of peel back the layers

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of that onion and you can find
some really really special things, very cool.

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You talked a lot in your enablement
section about like technology, like you

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know, people, and then your
second kind of layer was like getting the

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right technology. And I think if
there's anything I hear from smaller institutions about

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competing, it's like, why don't
have the technology, but I can't hire

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the people I don't have the money. And so that's kind of like,

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how do I either build or buy
or partner to get the right set of

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technologies and figure out whether I should
build it in a house, whether I

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should partner, which is the right
partner? That becomes critical. How do

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you think about the challenge of finding
and deploying the right technology, because that

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feels like where people feel like they're
really at a disadvantage versus the big guys

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who have like, Yeah, you
look at the City Bank Technology Bunch or

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whatever. It looks like Google's revenue
or something ridiculous, Like it's just this

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huge number, and you go,
how do I possibly compete with that?

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So I'm curious how you think about, you know, winning in technology without

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having the resource of you know,
one of the larger banks. Yeah,

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it's difficult, you know. I
will say. The starting point is always

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the money, right, like,
how am I going to fund this project?

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How am I going to make it
make sense from a complete ROI standpoint?

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But if you can suspend that for
a moment, Step one to me

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is always just knowing what's out there. You know. I've always looked back

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at this one task I was given
a long time ago, where you know,

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one of my managers pulled me aside
and said, hey, look at

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this cool CRM project or tool.
I need to figure out who has this

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tool available. And I'll tell you, Jeff, I must have went back

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to my desk and spent weeks just
scouring through the internet, articles, blogs,

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everything I can to find this one
particular tool. Then I ended up

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finding it, and the craziest thing
happened. I want to say, you

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know, probably a month prior to
me actually starting to do this search,

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I ended up getting one of these
normal you know, banking tech magazine sent

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to me. And you know how
it goes. You get all these magazines

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all the time, you flipped through
them, you look for interesting articles,

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you cast at the side. I
flipped the thing over and on one of

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the last pages was an ad from
the company. Right. So I'm sitting

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here and thinking like I've been searching
for this company for weeks now, and

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the whole time I had a magazine
on my desk with an ad from the

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company in the magazine. So you
know the point of the story, it's

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really not know on what's out there, right, So whether it's going to

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trade shows, reading the magazines,
reading books, watching podcasts, whatever you

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do, you've got to consume as
much information about the business as possible because

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you start to get a picture for
what's out there, what's being worked on,

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and what the future looks like.
So the baseline has to be I've

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got to know what's out there.
Once you know what's out there, then

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you can start to devise a plan
that allows you to achieve those technology goals.

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For us here, one of the
things that I did at the advice

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of the salesperson I met throughout my
journey, was actually to focus on tools

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that helped our sales team build business. First. Typically in lending, Yeah,

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typically in lending, people focus on
the loan origination system. You know,

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what am I going to do to
process my loans in the most efficient

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manner? And honestly, it makes
all the sense in the world, right

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because you've got to close loan as
you want to do it the best way

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possible and as compliant as possible.
What I found was that by focusing on

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technology that helped my sales team,
I not only attracted salespeople that felt like

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they needed that technology, but we
began to actually generate the business we needed

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to pay for the more expensive back
end technology. So we took a lead

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that focused heavily on you know,
CRM, on pricing, on POS gave

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those to my sales team. That
way, they had those resources out there

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to really kind of make their job
more efficient. A lot of things that

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we done in the back end was
manual, so it was a little harder

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and we most certainly didn't have the
best integration with those systems. It's a

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lot of exploiting spreadsheets and importing data. But the reality is we be allowed

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that to give us the propellers we
needed to kind of grow and it worked

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out really well for us here.
I love that for two reasons. I

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mean, in my mind, two
lessons I've learned about technology plants. One

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being add value quickly how you like, you know, not let the big

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project in the way of delivering something
that's kind of higue that you can take

359
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advantage of. And secondly, kind
of not letting the perfect stand in the

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way of the possible. They kind
of like we gotta do a little manual

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for now. We know that's like
that's not where we want to be,

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but it gets us to that value
more quickly and then shows us we can

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build the case much where like,
hey, we got we get this amount

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of value to this if we just
do this extra piece, here's what we

365
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can do, and we can actually
get to that better place more easily and

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build support for it over time.
I find that those like getting to value

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quickly and doing some things maybe that
aren't the right final solution, but that

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gets you there faster can be really
powerful tools and kind of building internal support

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and getting projects out the door,
and you know, actually providing value of

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the organization, and you learn a
lot. You know, I hate to

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say it, but you know,
I go back to the things I learned,

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you know, when I first started
this business, Like that's how I

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learned to navigate different POS systems,
LOS systems. You know, some of

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the manual calculations. You don't love
doing it, but you still have to

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know how it works. And then
there's also just a general kind of baseline

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of how technology interacts with data that
you start to appreciate when you have to

377
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look at the Excel spreadsheet and pulled
it into the system and then you don't

378
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see the fields map and appropriately you
most certainly get an appreciation from middleware.

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But the understanding that I was able
to allow me to develop, I think

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is carried with me a long way
throughout my career. Fascinating. I agree.

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I want to ask you maybe one
more area, which is how do

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you think about decision make You kind
of talked about not letting your knowledge of

383
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the space get in the way of
being creative or thinking kind of with fresh

384
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eyes, But how do you think
about like the value of experts in history

385
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versus data in making decisions about what
to invest in or how to move forward

386
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.160
the project because it feels like those
can be you know, whether we're reliance

387
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some intuition or some history or some
data. And how do we actually get

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the right data in structure and how
do you think about, you know,

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leveraging those two kind of different assets, disparate assets when you're making decisions.

390
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.400
Yeah, you know, I'm a
huge data guy. You know, I'm

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a huge data nerd. There's no
other way to tell it, you know,

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I tell people one of the you
know, I had someone asked me

393
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once before how I have gotten to
the point where I am with consuming data?

394
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And the reality is like, I
don't have I'm a big sports phantom,

395
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.440
and I don't have time to watch
every game, but I read every

396
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:41.759
game's box score every single night,
and I probably have since I was a

397
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little kid. So, you know, sadly, I consume so much data

398
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.680
that looking at data for work is
almost like a byproduct of what I do

399
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.680
for fun in my free time.
So to answer your question, I'm huge

400
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.640
into the data analytics. I think
it usually helps guide decisions and truth be

401
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.319
told. When I first got into
the job i'm in now, the very

402
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.519
first thing I focused on was building
the right data driven tools to allow me

403
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.799
to make data driven decisions. And
then the next mix I layer onto that

404
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.759
always becomes the people. So to
go to your question there, I usually

405
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:18.039
leave with the data and then rely
on my knowledge afterwards and the knowledge of

406
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others afterwards. And that's obviously no
slight on that knowledge. But the data

407
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.759
should tell you the answer. What
people tell you is how it actually plays

408
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.000
out, right, you know.
So it's one of those funny things where

409
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.240
you obviously have to have an appreciation
for history because the data can tell you

410
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.640
anything at once, but the reality
is someone who's lived it and seen it

411
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:41.079
is going to be able to tell
you how these things play out no matter

412
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.279
what that data may imply. So
for me, I leave with data,

413
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.599
then immediately go to the people.
Go to the people with knowledge, get

414
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:49.839
their input from what they've seen throughout
their careers, and allow that to kind

415
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.400
of guide me to that decision point. Interesting, how do you think about

416
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.640
having you know that you talk about
then big data. Guess, so there's

417
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.759
two things you said that I really
want to understood it thinking about the box

418
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.440
score examples that you're kind of finding
a way to summarize the day there's like

419
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:07.160
watching the game. There's a lot
of data that you miss if you look

420
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:08.200
at the box score. But you're
watching the game, but you've got the

421
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:11.000
like the thing you wanted, which
like the score, is the basic the

422
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.279
basic comings and goings. Right,
you didn't see like who swing looked good

423
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.400
and who looked tired and which picture
was thrown, which you don't get at

424
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:21.559
all. Right, you'll lose some
nuance, but you get you can consume

425
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:23.119
way more information, Like you can
actually look the box scores for dozens of

426
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.880
games. Without you could never watch
dozens of games in a day, but

427
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.200
you can might pull up the paper. Are there similar things you do for

428
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.640
industry news or internal news where you're
saying, how do I go from the

429
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.720
big set of possible data to the
summary review that gives me what I need

430
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:40.160
to see quickly, so I can
have a larger scope of the kinds of

431
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:41.400
data that I'm looking at, because
that's the value, right as all of

432
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.240
sudden, you're you're looking at a
much broader field than you would if you

433
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.240
were looking at a much more detailed
look. Yep, I agree with you,

434
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.039
you know, from from my perspective. One of the things that I

435
00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.559
think is really important is anything that
could be automated to me. I have

436
00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.720
to get automated to me. So
there's obviously articles and news blurbs or you

437
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.559
know blogs I'm sorry that you just
sign up for and they just show up

438
00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:04.839
in your inbox first thing in the
morning. To me, that's usually my

439
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.359
starting point because you know, going
back to what you said, you do

440
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.880
have to kind of consume that high
level information. So if I'm at least

441
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.000
tuned in to get delivered the most
and hobviously goes across the whole board,

442
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.079
you know, whether it's a technology
driven you know, article or magazine,

443
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.680
whether it's some of the regulatory blasts
from the CSPBA, anything that I can

444
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.920
get automatically just sent to my inbox, I must have because to a point,

445
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.319
that again goes almost to the same
thing I said about the technology.

446
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.519
It keys you in on what's going
on around you. So I need those

447
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:33.680
keys to say, like, hey, this is what we're talking about over

448
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.400
here, because this is a hot
button issue. And then once you start

449
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.119
digging into that top play you can
say, okay, I know a little

450
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:41.799
bit about this, I know nothing
about that. I need to go dig

451
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.240
more into that so to a point, I use it kind of clue me

452
00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:49.119
in. So I'm huge on some
of the automated blogs that come out,

453
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:52.839
anything that can just go on a
regular you know, like I said,

454
00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.279
the regulatory news blurbs that come out, and you know, we've got some

455
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.240
compliance intens that do the same thing. Love consuming all that information and then

456
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.519
obviously digging deeper anytime that I see
something that I'm either completely in the dark

457
00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:04.200
of or just don't know enough about, and I'll just use it to kind

458
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.319
of guide me. Got it.
I love that. So I'm like,

459
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.240
I started signing up for newsletters and
I tend to like sign up for a

460
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.480
bunch and then remove the ones that
aren't Like there's like a winnowing. There's

461
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.559
a curating process for industry news or
get a lot of AI news letters coming

462
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.160
to me now, and then I
try and find the same thing I think

463
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.960
them say it would be the time
spent on building the right dashboards with the

464
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.200
right data to make decisions internally that
can kind of give the summary view on

465
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:30.839
the regular. Actually, this time
really well spent. You can surface that

466
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.000
data. So I want to ask
you on this too, how do you

467
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:37.400
think about investing in data infrastructure because
I often hear from organizations, Yeah I

468
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.559
love to make database decisions, but
like it takes six weeks or you know,

469
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:42.480
I call the analytics team like,
oh, yeah we could, we

470
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:45.319
could pull that number four. You
will take us, you know, five

471
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.519
days or seven days to pull it, and then you go out. I

472
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.680
can't. I can't have every question
I asked pack seven days to get an

473
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:53.920
answer back from an analytics team because
it's in four databases and wherever. So

474
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.799
are there approaches you have or insight
you've got on how you like, get

475
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:03.559
the infrastructure available, have data ready
to use in that decision making processes?

476
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.000
That seems like sometimes just getting to
the answer to what seemed like simple questions

477
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.960
can be the the roadblock to using
data effectively. You can't like I would

478
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.480
use the data, but I can't
get the answer to my question, So

479
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:15.599
then I want to go on intuition
instead. Yeah, you know, honestly,

480
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.640
it all depends on where you're at. So as tricky and there's a

481
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:23.000
big non answer for me personally,
I looked at my circumstance on day one

482
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.519
and said, what data do I
have available to me right now that I

483
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.319
can leverage and that goes for everyone
in every situation. So whether you're a

484
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:36.240
small community bank that has an all
likelihoods siloed data information or bigger institution that

485
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:41.240
likely has a centralized data team and
warehouse, you've got to navigate your particular

486
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.920
situation. Going back to my experience, my first thing I wanted to do

487
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.279
is take what was available to me
and then start to leverage it. And

488
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.079
you know, the first thing I
learned, Jeff, people aren't putting the

489
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:55.000
data in the right fields right.
So day one I build the reports,

490
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.960
I pull up and there's nothing right. So then what I ultimately realized is

491
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:02.759
I need to use those reports that
we're supposed to have the data as a

492
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.440
tool to manage whether we're even inputting
the data. So that required me to

493
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.559
start spending time with my staff saying, hey, you know we funded this

494
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.480
loan, why isn't the funding date
here? And you start to kind of

495
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.160
work through these things where you start
to let people know how important certain data

496
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.960
fields are. So it started with
actually trying to make reports, realizing that

497
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.200
they weren't going to work because I
was missing key data points. Then working

498
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.519
with the team to kind of make
those data points the norm and then from

499
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.039
there you always have the long term
goal. So short term consume what I

500
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:34.000
have available, make reports that can
allow me to determine how is my team

501
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.319
moving and progressing, what is the
best decision for the circumstance, And then

502
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.880
at an enterprise wide level, it's
all got to speak to each other.

503
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.680
Right, So when you're at a
small community bank, typically you find yourself

504
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:52.119
in a situation where it's a long
term goal to have one centralized data repository

505
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:56.920
that's pulling in retail banking data,
commercial lending data, residential lending and consumer

506
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.519
lending data, putting them all in
one place, and then getting to make

507
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.640
those decisions that ultimately allow each business
line to work at this optimal capacity.

508
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.240
The challenge that takes so long,
right, not only does it take long,

509
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:12.480
but the biggest challenge that community banks
typically faces. You know, you've

510
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:18.079
got finite resources, both financially and
from an employee standpoint, You've got priorities

511
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:19.680
that obviously differ. Right, So
as much as I want to go onto

512
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.839
that database on day one and have
reports made from my team, I'm sure

513
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.640
the same way is felt by the
retail banking team, and I'm sure the

514
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.640
commercial lending team feels the same way. So now you have to start weighing

515
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.519
like, okay, well, what's
the market look like, what's driving revenue

516
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.960
across the organization? And honestly,
you've got to prioritize what makes the most

517
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.519
sense and I get that. So
to me a short term you've got to

518
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.240
take what you have and make sure
it's working as well as possible, and

519
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.759
that requires you to spend some time
making sure you're getting the right data.

520
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:47.440
You got to do it. And
then long term, as an organization,

521
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.880
you've got to focus on getting it
into one centralized place and then finding a

522
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.200
way to get that information out to
the different business lines in the most efficient

523
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.240
manner where you can reap the gains
from it. And just take it one

524
00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.200
day at a time. It's easy
to be intimidated day one and just turn

525
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.640
your back to data, but if
you invest on day one, you will

526
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.480
reap those rewards just a matter of
time. Well, Chinese setting right,

527
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.640
the best time to plan a trede
was twenty years ago. On the second

528
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:14.480
best time, you gotta do it. Got I gotta start planning a tree

529
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:17.799
for hopefully not twenty years. In
the data infrastructure or play but you know,

530
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:21.480
like some number of years down the
road when you read the full benefits,

531
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:23.960
all right, now, that was
that was fantastic advice. I think

532
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.799
that's the end of my my prepared
questions. But I have three questions I

533
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.359
love to ask everybody at the end
of these episodes, which I find are

534
00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:36.119
really insightful. So if you're ready, here we go. Let's do it.

535
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:38.640
First question, what's the best career
advice you've ever gotten? That is

536
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.920
a good question, and I am
going to tell you the truth. You

537
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.000
know, I had an instance in
my career early on where you know,

538
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.880
I had had gutten sick and ironically, I was talking to one of my

539
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:52.839
managers at the time and I didn't
know what to do as far as how

540
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.839
I should be communicating it throughout the
organization. And you know, he told

541
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.319
me something that was brutally honest that
I really appreciate it. And he told

542
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.720
me, in a nutshell that while
me and him cared a lot, I'd

543
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:10.720
find out that a lot of other
people wouldn't really care. And as crazy

544
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:14.440
as that sounds from an advice standpoint, what it reminded me of was that

545
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.240
everyone's got things going on in their
life and having an appreciation for the fact

546
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.960
that everyone's got things going on is
really really important. How we handle those

547
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.559
things can ultimately define who we become
and who we are. So what he

548
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.440
really taught me in that moment was
who do you want to be? Control

549
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.039
what you can control in those moments, and the things that you can't control,

550
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.640
your best to not turn to those
around you and try to have them

551
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.880
either understand you can't do it and
boost up. Although you know, obviously

552
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.200
having a strong support system's really important, but the key is always saying,

553
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.880
hey, I've got this in front
of me, this challenge, this obstacle

554
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.200
to overcome, and I'm going to
go overcome it. And then once I'm

555
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.279
done overcoming it, then perhaps we
can talk about those challenges that may have

556
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:59.519
gotten in my way. But don't
let those challenges stop me from trying.

557
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:05.119
Interesting. That's a fascinating story.
My second question is always what's the best

558
00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:09.359
piece of advice about the banking industry? You've gotten the best piece about the

559
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:14.720
banking industry. You can make a
little narrower consumer banking lending, but you

560
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:19.440
know, kind of like industry specific
advice or perspective. Yeah, that's a

561
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.039
hard question. The best piece of
advice I've done in the banking industry.

562
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:28.960
Yeah, you know, one of
the things that someone told me that I've

563
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:32.960
kind of always kind of clung to
was to stay close to the customer.

564
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:39.079
And what's interesting is it's usually said
in the scale of you know, you're

565
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.640
a salesperson, right, and a
lot of times people who work in sales

566
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.079
get scared that, well, if
I work in sales, I don't want

567
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:46.759
to become a sales manager because I'm
no longer working with the customers. Not

568
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:50.519
working with the customers, I'm no
longer going to have the value I used

569
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.680
to have. That lodge makes all
the sense in the world For someone like

570
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.200
me who's worked in operations. What
it reminds me of is that what I

571
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:01.400
do, whether it was post closing
on day one, or you know,

572
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:06.079
the processing or the underwriting, whatever
else happens throughout the land process, it's

573
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:08.640
still all about the customer, right, Does the customer enjoy this experience?

574
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:13.519
Depending on you know what you can
and can't control. Obviously, some underwriting

575
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.559
things you just have to do.
I always try to ask myself, is

576
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.000
a customer gonna be happy with this? And if you lean with that customer

577
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:23.559
first mentality. I found through my
experiences that you tend to find yourself on

578
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:28.640
the right side of history. So
to me, it's all about the customer.

579
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.400
Try to stay close to them.
If you can't stay close from pure

580
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:35.359
sales perspective, stay close from an
experience perspective, and then things usually work

581
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.319
out that way. Stay close to
the customer and put them in the middle

582
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:42.480
eight. I love that because it's
it's so easy, particularly in a finance

583
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.319
business, to like get caught up
in the numbers and forget the you know,

584
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.720
the individuals, the customer at the
end of the get your approval rates

585
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:52.119
and your funding rates and your default
rates, and you can just look like

586
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:53.720
a big spreadsheet and there's just there's
people and customers at the end of it,

587
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.599
and they really do drive the business
at the end of the day.

588
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.440
And understanding where they're coming from,
the putting their needs first really powerful.

589
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.160
All Right, They're all one last
question, the hardest of the bunch.

590
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.159
What's one bold prediction for the future. This is the if I bring you

591
00:34:07.199 --> 00:34:09.000
back in a year, can we
can? We can? We hold your

592
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:12.480
feet to to fire And if you've
made a made a good call here or

593
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.760
not goodness gracious, this is the
yeah, the good old crystal ball question.

594
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.440
I don't know, this is lose
lose too. Like, Ultimately,

595
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.920
if I say a great prediction,
don't do it myself, I'm going to

596
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:24.960
be the guy who decided not to
pull the trigger on the great idea for

597
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:30.639
this way off. You know,
with this business, I think we're we're

598
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:35.920
in a place now where consumer lending
is very transactional. I think a lot

599
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:42.480
of people are looking at technology as
being the driver in removing some of sales

600
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.800
from the process. So if I
were to make one prediction from now,

601
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.679
it's going to be a lot of
people are going to think technology will take

602
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.960
sales people out of morgage lending.
I'll argue technology is going to end up

603
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:58.599
making sales people even more important to
the sales process, because now we're going

604
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.039
to find ourselves in a place where
services your differentiator. If someone were to

605
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:07.400
tell me that I've got technology that
can take me from application of closing today,

606
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.119
Quicken's got the exact same thing.
Well, now the only differentiator is

607
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.719
going to be the person that picks
up the phone and just says, hey,

608
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.639
how are you doing so to me, I'm a big believer that is

609
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:21.440
technology grows, whether it's blockchain or
whatever else, it makes the processing,

610
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:25.599
underwriting, closing process easier. If
you decide to exclude salespeople from that process,

611
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.840
I feel you're gonna end up on
the wrong side of history here.

612
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.400
I think they're going to and again
I stole it from someone else, They're

613
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:37.559
going to be become what I call
the champagne and the process the champagne the

614
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.280
champagne. You've got the same experience
and two sides of the bucket. But

615
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.960
on one side there's going to be
a person sitting there with their champagne,

616
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:45.719
cheering with someone else. On the
other side, there's just gonna be someone

617
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.920
sitting down with nothing. Do you
want to be doing the champagne toast or

618
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:53.519
the group with no champagne the champagne
toast? I like it excellent that you

619
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:57.119
did good job of the bold prediction. Now you gotta keep yourself and the

620
00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:59.000
sales seems gonna be happy. Don't
know that you're not trying to make them

621
00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:04.599
unemployed with atom everybody wins. Well, darl this is a fascinating conversation.

622
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.000
I appreciate your making the time to
join us today and sharing your perspectives.

623
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:12.199
Thanks Jeff, really appreciate the opportunity. It was really fun. Upstart partners

624
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.639
with banks and credit unions to help
grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a

625
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:22.239
modern, all digital lending experience.
As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy,

626
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:27.000
it only makes sense that their bank
does too. Upstarts AI lending platform

627
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.400
uses sophisticated machine learning models to more
accurately identify risk and approve more applicants than

628
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:38.480
traditional credit models. With fraud rates
near zero, Upstarts all Digital experience reduces

629
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:45.400
manual processing for banks and offers a
simple and convenient experience for consumers. Whether

630
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.159
you're looking to grow and enhance your
existing personal and auto lending programs or you're

631
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:54.159
just getting started, Upstart can help. Upstart offers an end to end solution

632
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:59.159
that can help you find more credit
worthy borrowers within your risk profile. With

633
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:04.840
all digital underwriting, onboarding, loan
closing, and servicing, It's all possible

634
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.519
with Upstart in your quarter. Learn
more about finding new borrowers, enhancing your

635
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:14.440
credit decisioning process, and growing your
business by visiting upstart dot com, slash

636
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:20.719
Foward dash Banks that's upstart dot Com
slash foward dash banks. You've been listening

637
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.440
to Leaders and Lending from upstart.
Make sure you never miss an episode.

638
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:29.159
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639
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:31.239
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640
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.480
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