Clicks To Bricks: Starting the Customer Experience Digitally

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You're listening to Leaders and Lending from
Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer

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lenders grow their programs and improve their
product offerings. Each week, here,

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decision makers in the finance industry offer
insights into the future of the lending industry,

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best practices around digital transformation, and
more. Let's get into the show.

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Welcome to Leaders in Lending. I'm
your host, Jeff Keltner. This

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week's episode features my conversation with Jenna
Stricker, who's been in her role as

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the SVP and the head of Digital
Lending at NBCC for ten weeks, but

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in the consumer lending space for more
than ten years, and shares her experience

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from throughout that time. She had
a really interesting phase going from clicks to

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bricks and not just bricks to clicks, which I thought was really interesting perspective.

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Shares how that kind of dictates what
you need to do in the bricks

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and the clicks environments each I promise
that'll make sense if you listen to the

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episode, how you think about online
experiences. Her propensity for opening up lots

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of digital accounts as as I often
tend to do as well I when comparison

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shopping and trying to find new ideas
for how how things are done well by

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others in this space, and also
approaches to alternative data how I can increase

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the ability of lenders and financial institutions
in general to serve more customers. So

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I thought it was a really fascinating
conversation and I hope you enjoy it as

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well. Without further dude, this
is my conversation with Jenna Stricker. Jenna,

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thanks for joining us today on the
podcast. I really appreciate your making

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the time. Thank you for having
me. Yeah, I've been I always

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like to start by asking my guests
a little bit about their pathway to their

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current point in their career, because
it's usually not our childhood ambition to end

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up in the banking space, at
least it wasn't mine. But yet here

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we are. So tell me a
little bit about the path that has brought

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you to this place. Yeah,
I guess I maybe I did. Maybe

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I was the odd odd man out. I wasn't driving, didn't dream about

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being a banker by any means,
but I always did, you know,

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as a kind of a career marketing
professional. Started my career actually very early,

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working fifteen sixteen years old, in
a call center, and so I

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always was just kind of that connoisseur
of the perfect customer experience or the perfect

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customer engagement with, you know,
whether it's somebody that's buying a newspaper subscription

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or signing up for some sort of
service on the phone. So for me,

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I don't know, I was always
really passionate about that, about making

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sure that when I was engaging with
someone that we did not have somebody that

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walked away like, oh, what
was that experience that just happened. So

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that's really kind of I would say
that the fastest way to describe how did

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I get here is I worked,
you know, about ten years ago,

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starting in a consumer lending organization,
focusing on portfolio growth and acquisition. How

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do we make the biggest impact with
our customer engagement, how do we retain

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those customers and continue growing our base
of customers of really you know, ecstatically

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happy individuals with the experience that they've
had. And so that's that's really led

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me here. I've only worked for
a handful of organizations over the last ten

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years, and it's always been focused
on just growing that consumer making sure those

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you know, one on one experiences
whether it's what's someone in a call center

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or on an email campaign or a
display at that they see that it's very

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clear and conspicuous. You know what
they're getting into and what their benefit would

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be. All Right. I love
that that story and the focus on consumers

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and customers and growth, which I
think is so so much a part of

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what every institution now is trying to
find a way to do. But I

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want to dive into one of the
things you said to me when we talked

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earlier, which was moving from bricks
to clicks to clicks to bricks, which

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I thought was this, everybody's got
these little one liners that I think,

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but they kind of capture some truth
about what we're trying to do, and

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that was an interesting one I hadn't
heard before. So you tell me a

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little bit about like, what what
do you mean when you say moving from

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bricks to clicks to clicks to bricks. How do you think about what that's

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what you're trying to do in that
context? Yeah, I think so a

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little bit about NBKC. We're an
organization that's been around for some time,

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but you know, early on had
a very heavy focus on the digital world,

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being a fintech partner in bringing and
I think you know me from a

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community bank standpoint, not every community
bank has our entire team of developers behind

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them that you know, are kind
of owned and guided by the direction of

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where the bank is going. And
I think that plays a huge role in

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you know that catch phrase of of
clicks to bricks and bricks to clicks,

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and well, the majority of banks
have you know, I guess typically over

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the course of history, always focused
on having a brick and mortar place in

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their community or a brick and mortar
place in their market. Um, we

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recognize that that's incredibly important for a
very large segment of our borrowers that they

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have that relationship banking with someone who's
on the corner of you know, first

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in Maine, and that certainly does
still play a huge part in our strategic

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plan. But I would say even
bigger than that is that we haven't been

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focused on trying to drive individuals way
from a brick and mortar presence over to

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an online presence, which I think
does happen organically right now. The bricks

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to clip, Yeah, folks are
kind of saying, hey, let's try

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to get people into our online space. And we've actually really been focused on

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the reverse of that, saying we're
not trying to force you into this digital

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place, but we're here for that
and so many of our online banking relationships

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and partnerships that we have not only
with businesses in our community and in our

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Kansas City footprint, but also with
borrowers and with deposit customers. Right,

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they actually started out as an online
banking customer and are very happy to find

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that they can actually still go into
a brick and water place as well.

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How does that change how you think
about the digital experience. I mean,

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it's a really fascinating kind of shift, but it means in many ways,

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your digital experience could be the first
or the primary where I think a lot

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of institutions have thought about building a
digital experience as the follow on to the

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in person, the current customer who's
got a relationship it wants to check their

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balance or deposit a check or do
something simple. But in this case,

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you're saying it maybe the first or
the primary interaction somebody has which kind of

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changes the nature of what you need
to accomplish or maybe how you think about

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serving that customer. I'm curious how
you see that shift, or if I'm

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crazy when I say that, but
it seems very interesting to go from clicks

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to bricks. It takes some of
you came to you digitally. Now you're

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talking about onboarding and starting a relationship
digitally and then having the in person service,

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which makes a ton of sense to
me. But I imagine it shifts

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your priorities a little bit on what
you're delivering or how you think about the

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digital experience of the role it plays
in the customer journey, because you're kind

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of inserting it in some ways at
a different point in that journey. I

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think you're absolutely right, Jeff.
And the one thing that you said that

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is could not be more important to
remember for any organization that's thinking about how

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do we adapt in this fintech space
or in you know, kind of a

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Again, I keep saying clicks to
bricks, but in this digital revolution that

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I think most banks are having right
now, is that does become incredibly important

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that you get off on the right
foot with that barrow, that they understand

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the support that they have from your
institution, as well as the myriad of

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products and product offering that the bank
has. So you know, I would

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never say we're in a time and
place where it's not important to be focusing

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on that digital interaction, but us
starting that and also having that as a

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primary communication source means that, you
know, we always have to get off

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on the right foot with those borrowers
and also communicate to them right be very

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thorough in our communications as too.
Here's again, here's what you can expect

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from your interaction, and here's what
you can benefit from as well. I

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like that knowing so much. I
think of life as setting expectations and so

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kind of understanding where to go for
what, When when do you use A

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or when do use B As long
as people are actually more flexible I think

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than we often understand. As long
as they have the expectations set right,

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they know where they're supposed to go, what they're supposed to do. As

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long as you meet those expectations,
that's huge. And helping them understand where

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and when and how to communicate with
which tools can work, I think can

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make a big difference. I want
to dive your your point on customer experience,

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you know you talked about I think
opening up lots of one of those

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people I've got, you know,
I got a stack of cards and a

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drawer over here. That's all the
various digital bank accounts and services. I've

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got one that you could use to
spend bitcoin on stuff the credit card,

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and then I bought a cup of
coffee on bitcoin in like twenty fourteen,

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and that's a turns out that was
a very expensive cup of coffee at the

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car exchange. M But you know, trying out all those services I think

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is really valuable. Talk to a
little bit about how you think about the

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value of that, or opening up
lots of accounts and how that informs how

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you think about building the right customer
experience for your own customer. Absolutely,

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that is um it's a little bit
of a passion of mine, and I

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would say that it takes up a
fair amount of my mailbox as well.

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But yeah, I think, you
know, exploring what in this day and

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age of neo banks, um,
you know, banks that sort of this

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this niche of the market, I
think it's fascinating and I think it's fascinating

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for us to see how consumers are
being spoken to right from the company perspective,

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because what that brand is trying to
do, when you know, specific

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to a new bank is talk to
that borrower. But you know, the

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individuals at the sponsor bank or at
the company that you know put that card

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or bank account out, um,
they're likely not in the target audience for

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that barrower. So I think it's
fascinating to go out and look at how

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brands have crafted their voice, how
they've crafted that experience of what it looks

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like online. How can you engage
with the brand? That's a big one

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for me. I love reaching out. You know, if I opened a

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package of fruit stacks for one of
my kids the other day and there was

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like this weird, you know,
gob of white stuff in there, and

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I'm sure it was just probably where
coloring didn't get mixed into the fruit stacks

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all the way. But I love
to reach out to the brand and engage

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with them and say, hey,
I found this in our box just to

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see what the customer experience is like, and I think we can bring that

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back to our brand to say,
you know, what is it that not

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only you know we're talking about like
ancillary industry, but our competitors, you

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know, direct community banks in our
market or even online banks as well,

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are actually engaging with their consumer base. Because I want to make sure that

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what we're doing at the end of
the day, is that we're actually giving

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people what they want and more.
It's not about meeting the baseline expectation,

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it's about exceeding that expectation as well. Yeah, that's so true. I'm

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curious do you do this with your
own product. One of the things that

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surprised me when I talk to some
banking executives is like they actually have never

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been through the onboarding experience for their
own institution. They don't. I mean

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I used to. I've got like
five thousand email accounts and upstart systems because

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I used to apply for a loan, Like every week they talk and we've

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changed something, I need to go
like see it. And then I'd sign

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up for all of our competitors and
go through the flow and I'd say,

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hey, they do this and we
don't do that, like why don't why

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don't we do that? Or should
we? You know? Just so,

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of course they would require a unique
email, so I have like a bajillion

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versions of emails that I use for
that. But I'm curious if you've got

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if you go through your flow,
if your team goes through your flow,

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and if you like what you learn
from that because to me it's been such

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a valuable experience, really, but
put yourself in the customer's shoes and understand

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the process from the customer's point of
view, which can often get lost in

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the kind of internal politics and architecture
diagram and checkbox of things that need to

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get done before. And I got
my BSA checklist and my am L checklist

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and we do these twelve things.
Well, what does it actually feel like?

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Right? And how does that And
I think that's what you're talking about

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when you talk about finding these brands
and going through those experiences, And I'm

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curious if you do the same thing
with your own because it's so interesting to

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see it. Absolutely, yeah,
absolutely it is. It's so important to

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me. I think that's kind of
one of the one of the first things

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I do. It's I call it
a it's a it's a base level.

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It's level zero point zero tasks.
You know, when when you're actually getting

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either ready to launch a new product
or you know, add a new feature.

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Right. I think everyone's in this
time and place where we're thinking about

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fraud and what you know KYC does
for our business, obviously knowing that that's

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a regulatory requirement but it's definitely something
that helps bend off if you're doing it

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correctly, a fair amount of loss
right mitigating in some instances millions of dollars

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depending upon what your product offering is. But I do run through that.

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I make it a best practice of
mine to do it on a desktop and

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a mobile device. Send it to
several people on our team, send it

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to people outside of our our organizations, like, hey, can you step

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through this right at the appropriate place? Hey, mom, you know or

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cousin, I need you to come
in here with your device and walk through

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this. But just like you,
I'm surprised that there's a lot we get

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caught up in the day to day
QA and you know, business acceptance testing

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on some of these digital products.
And it never ceases to amaze me some

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things that are very basic that sometimes
get overlooked. So absolute firm requirement for

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me to do that and then taking
it one step further. As well as

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session recordings seems to be a real
hot trend and tech right now that the

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number of things I've seen on a
session recording go wrong that you would never

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get in a testing environment is also
really important just to set and watch right,

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what are customers doing. What are
they looking for? Um? You

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know, are we answering their questions? Are they scrolling up and down on

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the page and reading every single word
and maybe not finding what they're looking for

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before they abandon? So, Um, those are all things that are absolutely

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critical requirements. I love that kind
of other people in the session record It's

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so true. Like you watch these
session recordings and you're like trying to make

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a payment. You go, oh, click that button. Why would you

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click that button? Why no,
no, no, don't don't? Why

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no? Why why? And then
you got to like learn from that because

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it's especially when you've seen the products
so much, you like you have this

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intuitive understanding of what to do or
how, and you're a savvy consumer of

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such products being in the industry,
and then the average consumer isn't and they

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haven't seen a product, and so
it could be shocking what they do.

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And then you go, but that's
like great data on we better make this

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more obvious what to do or where
to go or how to achieve this objective

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that they have, because it could
be stunning what you find in those recordings.

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Um, when you watch people actually
doing doing using your product, and

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you go it's not what I thought
you would do well. Absolutely, so

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I wanted to dive into something you
said earlier because you talked about having your

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own dedicated development team, which is
fascinating because a lot of It's one of

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the funny things to me that this
kind of idea of bank fintech partnership is

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considered new and I look at like
just the core systems providers, and like,

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very few financial institutions really build the
majority of their own software, right,

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they're really And so I look at
fintech partnerships think a software developer providing

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tools to financial institution is kind of
not that new a thing. And in

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many ways you're right that having your
own dedicated development team that's building core user

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experiences is somewhat different than others.
But obviously, you guys are not of

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a scale to be like building everything
from scratch on your own. How do

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you think about where you place your
bets on what's the priority for you to

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build versus by where you use the
resources of a development team to add the

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most value, Because it feels like
like an almost infinite menu of things you

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could do, and yet a resource
that clear is an infinite in scale and

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I'm curious how you think about where
do we deploy that for the most value.

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How do we think about making that
decision. I think every fintech organization

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on the face of the planet right
now faces that pench of our resources are

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not unlimited when it comes to you
know, software developers and engineers on the

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back end to build things. And
I would even challenge the biggest of you

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know, the box fintech companies out
there to say, oh, we build

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everything on our own. And I
just don't think it's a it's a reasonable

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expectation to think that any company has
the centect matter expertise to go out and

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build one hundred percent of their tools. And so it really boils down at

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the end of the day to a
really great build buy analysis as well as

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some great cross functional teamwork within your
company to say, here's what we're really

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good at and the things that maybe
we're not so good at, what makes

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sense for us to bring in house
and actually we're in the process of doing

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this for a larger project right now
on my team as well of you know,

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we need something to solve a particular
problem that is as a result of

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growth and a desire to grow with
the amount of time that it's going to

250
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take and you know, taking up
I would say, monopolizing two or three

251
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team members for the majority of the
next six months. You know, we're

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in this process of saying, here's
here's how we quantify what this tool costs

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us to build in house, not
even to mention the learning curves that this

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system, which is primarily more AI, will have, versus going out and

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saying, Okay, we found the
person who's a subject matter expert in the

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marketplace. They're already working with vendors. You know, they can kind of

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model out some statistics of what this
would in theory look like in our environment.

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You know, which path do we
want to go? And I think

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everyone at the table agrees that we
have to leverage again our areas of subject

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matter expertise when and if it applies, and if it doesn't apply, then

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there's no shame in going outside of
that team, because that's that team actually

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will be integral in an implementation as
well. Do you I'm curious one of

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the areas that I often think is
underinvested in is the unification of the customer

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experience across maybe different systems or protocols
or partners you've got, because you know,

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when you talk about the kind of
clicks to bricks, one of the

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things that it curs me's kind of
like the customer experience almost. I won't

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say it replaces the relationship, but
it's playing the same role that we used

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to think of the relationship, like
a thing that brings me back, that

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feels like I'm dealing with an institution
that understands me. Really comes together in

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the clicks world and that customer experience, and yet so often it can be

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disjointed. I mean I went through
a I've told the story a couple of

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times that I went through a mortgage. I got a mortgage from my bank

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shall remain nameless, you know,
witness protection kind of thing, and then

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I said, well, can I
get a heloc at the same time,

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I said absolutely? And then I
got like a different experience that ask me

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all the same and I was like, that should have been just a little

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like would you like fries with that
kind of question to originate a heal at

278
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the same time as a mortgage with
a good LTV, And instead it was

279
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an entirely new process. And I
feel like those seams between the systems and

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processes are often places where things break
down and delivering that experience, and so

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I'm curious how you think about that
kind of the integration and the you know,

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kind of surfacing of these things.
Is a place to put development resources

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versus deeper into an individual product,
because it don't. I always think it's

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an area that somewhat underinvested in by
many institutions because it just, you know,

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all the best individual experience. When
when I went to the next helock

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thing, I stopped the process.
I'm not filling out my address. I

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just got a mortgage by me my
address in And that's a simple thing to

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fix, but it makes such a
difference. So I'm curious how you think

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about that kind of like that the
glue element, so to speak, or

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the consistency and unification of experiences for
the customer. Yeah, I think that's

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a great question because if you if
you can imagine this, if you step

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back from the fifty thousandth of view, is that many times when we're developing

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I say this, we like universally, you know, when we're developing a

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product, it is you know it's
going to be the best product out there.

295
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We're going to launch it it's going
to have all these features, the

296
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customers are going to love it,
and then we think about implementing it,

297
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but not to your point of how
do these things cross functionally work together.

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And so I think that's really where
leadership is a key play. You know,

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at NBCC, we're very lucky in
the fact that all of our chiefs

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and our leadership team have been around
for a long time. They've worked together

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for ten, fifteen, twenty and
up years, and they they communicate,

302
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and so I think, really,
you know, boiling down that challenge with

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one solution is it's it's communication,
right because those departments a lot of times

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when you're talking about mortgage in a
hulock, they seem to be so you

305
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.559
know, kind of similar, if
you will, But at the end of

306
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the day, they probably have different
internal ownerships or or stake owners or you

307
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know, it's stablers if you will, at the bank, and you know,

308
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those two people may not be talking, they may not be using the

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same databases and making the same queries. And so ultimately, I think in

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order to achieve this harmony at a
brand or at a bank specifically, is

311
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it comes down to the communication of
us saying hey, we're rolling out this

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great product, should we be offering
it in conjunction with a mortgage? And

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we're doing something very similar right now
actually with the helock product at NBCC where

314
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we're talking about you know, customers
coming in and getting a helock. Doesn't

315
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it make sense for them to have
an online banking account so they can instantaneously

316
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transfer money versus waiting on that you
know, check to clear or wire ah,

317
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.359
you know, to go to an
external institution. We're really you know,

318
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.000
not necessarily thinking about it from you
know, a financial perspective, but

319
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this is a this is what's best
for the consumer. This is what makes

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the most sense to get customers access
to those funds right away. Yeah.

321
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I think that one of the hard
parts of this. There's a whole saying

322
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in Silicon Valley that you organizations often
shift their org chart, which is,

323
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.119
would you know, you get the
two stakeholders h do their thing, and

324
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then the customer sees two separate things
as opposed to unified experience. And I

325
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.240
find that sometimes it's that who plays
the role of the consumer. How do

326
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you put you know, you know, if you go back to the you

327
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.519
trying it out, like if you
went through that process, you would you

328
00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:14.599
would see the gap pretty clearly.
But how do you I'm curious how you

329
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.279
think about aligning those groups or getting
everybody in the same page. Because it

330
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:21.839
is communication, but it's also setting
up the right incentives within the organization or

331
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the right culture that prioritizes that customers
experience over that individual business business units,

332
00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:33.400
maybe not performance but kind of self
contained, you know, objectives and vision.

333
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:36.880
Do you have advice for how you
kind of foster that kind of culture

334
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.599
of communication, leadership, shared objectives, because I feel like that's so often

335
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.400
it's incentives or culture where that breaks
down. Everybody everybody believes it should be

336
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.160
true, and yet we fail to
deliver on that vision so often. How

337
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.359
do you actually, you know,
achieve that kind of result. I think

338
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:53.799
you hit the nail on the head
as it comes to culture, right,

339
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:59.079
this isn't this isn't about me,
This isn't about my division. This is

340
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about the bank and the banks greater
success. And um that's I'll say this.

341
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I've worked at many organizations that you
know, I've been working actively on

342
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.599
getting there with that culture and it
doesn't happen overnight, but it has to

343
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be something that from the top down
that individuals care about the overall success and

344
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they have to be very passionate about
their customers and about that customer experience.

345
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And so I say, you know, get every single person on board with

346
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understanding. And this goes all the
way down to your UM you know,

347
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.920
tellers at your bank and your brick
and mortar locations, your CX and customer

348
00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:38.079
experience specialists that that do you know, instant messaging that do email response,

349
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.240
phone calls, things like that,
of understanding that this is a product that's

350
00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.240
coming out. This is a benefit
to the customer. This is you know,

351
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.440
the reason that they bank with us, right, they do it for

352
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.039
a very specific reason, not because
you know, they drove buy our branch

353
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and just happen to walk in one
day. It doesn't happen by accident.

354
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.359
But it needs to be very intentional
top down from your CEO or your banks

355
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:04.519
president to make sure that everyone knows. Again I've mentioned communication earlier, this

356
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.720
is the benefit. This is absolutely
something that we all have to be passionate

357
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:14.400
about. Yeah, I love your
story with the helock and the digital the

358
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.599
digital bank account, because so often
you've got like I get the marks,

359
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:18.759
Well, we'll give you twenty basis
points off. If you open a checking

360
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account and you go, okay,
you gotta put one hundred bucks and you

361
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go okay, and then you like, why are one hundred bucks? How

362
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:27.480
long do I have to leave the
hundred bucks to keep the twenty five basis

363
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.480
points? And then you like,
you know, but that was that That

364
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.200
decision came from the point of view, if we want more deposits, right,

365
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.119
so what can we do to like
take this person and put them into

366
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a deposit product and what you're talking
about as a version, We went,

367
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hey, if you've got a helock, you can use it more quickly if

368
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you have a digital bank account.
So I'm starting not from the what the

369
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.200
bank wants to get out of it, but what's the value to the consumer

370
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.839
of the customer. That's just such
a different starting point to ask the question,

371
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:53.839
how do we make the consumers experience
better? Hey, you can access

372
00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:00.279
your helock funds instantaneously, not a
three day ACG transfer window or whatever,

373
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.799
but like instantaneously. That's a very
different mindset than like, you know,

374
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the thing that results in fraud at
larger institution. We go, oh,

375
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.240
we need more deposits. Let's just
see how many accounts we can get people

376
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.799
to open up when they're taking out
a mortgage, to just drive up our

377
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.720
number of customers to hit some sales
objective. That gets me a bonus.

378
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:19.000
Absolutely, and that's actually one of
the reasons why our NBCC Everything account we

379
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:23.680
offer a singular type of checking account
is it is straight to the point.

380
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:30.000
There are zero fees, no fees
whatsoever. We're trying to offer this as

381
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:36.000
a convenience to those customers. I've
been into many financial institutions going back to

382
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.319
that comment about opening accounts and seeing
what that's like, and they present a

383
00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:41.920
menu of account types. Right,
if you're going to have four or more

384
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.880
transactions every month that you know you
saved this fee, or if you have

385
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.160
three direct deposits, or if you
have blonde hair and blue eyes, you

386
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.000
can have this type of an account. And so really, you know,

387
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:52.880
at the end of the day,
we boil it down, we make it

388
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.640
simple. We're not going to overcomplicate
this. We want you to have a

389
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.720
simple and easy transaction that you know
what you're getting into when you get that

390
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:07.599
account. Yeah, that's so true. I feel like we live in an

391
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.160
age not just in your final stories, where like we offer people too many

392
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.400
choices, and I'm so often send
they're going, I want to pair of

393
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:15.839
shoes. Why are there? Like
you go to the running shoes store and

394
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:19.960
there's like five thousand pairs from the
same brand. You go, I don't

395
00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:25.559
know which one do I need?
And often those choices are not really you

396
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.960
know, not really important for most
people like you really just would prefer to

397
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.200
have the right thing given to you
and not a thousand options presented that you

398
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:37.880
don't really know how to choose them. One absolutely. Hey, Sarah buch

399
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:41.480
Here, the VP of Consumer Lending
at First Federal Bank of Kansas City.

400
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.960
A few years back, our executive
team knew we needed to grow or unsecured

401
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.319
personal loan portfolio, so we turned
to Upstart. Three years later, I

402
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.839
am proud to share that we've scaled
our loan volume target from five hundred thousand

403
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:59.079
a month to twelve million a month
and acquired over a thousand new customers.

404
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.440
If you want to keep are more
about our partnership, check out the full

405
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:07.920
case study on Upstart dot com forward
slash Lenders. Once again, that's Upstart

406
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.799
dot Com forward slash Lenders. All
right, let's get back to the show.

407
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.319
So I wanted to talk about one
more topic that came up in our

408
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:23.039
earlier conversation, which was the kind
of emerging use of alternative data to improve

409
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.680
underwriting. Maybe I should ask more
specific question, but I think you had

410
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:30.920
you had some thoughts on that and
whether that's like a real direction and what

411
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.440
the value of that is. And
then we talk about some other stuff that

412
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:37.079
I'm curious because it's an important topic
to us. But I think it's a

413
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:38.720
very much an emerging trend in the
space overall. What are the kind of

414
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:44.240
new ways we can improve our ability
to understand and predict risk? Absolutely,

415
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:45.960
I don't know that it's it's maybe
it's an emerging trend. I feel like

416
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:49.160
it's been around forever. I've been
using alternative data for more than a decade

417
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:55.000
now. I think that it has
I would say, an incredibly important place

418
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:59.920
in any financial institution. Regardless of
what audience you're serving, you can certainly

419
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:03.279
see some of the things that aren't
on the radar. If you're a traditional

420
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.640
bank customer and you're evaluating DTI from
someone and they appear to be you know,

421
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.799
I would say maybe a midprime or
near prime customer, don't you want

422
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.799
the full picture of what it is
that they're doing with their finances. Don't

423
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.799
you want to know if they went
down to a rent to own store to

424
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:21.119
know by now pay later loans?
I mean, those are things that are

425
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.480
really important to look at the whole
financial picture in its entirety, versus just

426
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.680
saying here's what's traditionally reported on bureau, so bureau important. Bureau data is

427
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:36.680
always going to be incredibly important.
The bureaus also offer this alternative data that

428
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.880
really does bring us full picture.
When we're talking about, especially online lending,

429
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:47.200
making quick decisions evaluating a person's kind
of financial wellness online, we need

430
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.559
to pull those things in because we
don't get to have the luxury of a

431
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.880
one on one conversation with a borrow. We're setting face to face in our

432
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:59.200
brick and mortar branch, right We're
taking data in microseconds and evaluating does this

433
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.559
customer the credit box that I'm trying
to fill? And so whether it's a

434
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.799
business or a consumer, there's very
relevant data that comes out of that alternative

435
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.440
data that helps us understand, you
know, again, bring more of that

436
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.039
picture forward. Maybe they look like
they had a thin credit file, but

437
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.960
you know they've performed really well on
some of these alternative products, or maybe

438
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.519
they're a business and they've only been
in business for twelve months, so I

439
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.200
have very little kind of cash flow
projections on hand. I can actually go

440
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.680
and see what are they doing?
Are they paying their utility bills? You

441
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.720
know, do they own their building, do they rent their building? What's

442
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.359
happening on that side of the business
that you're not typically going to get out

443
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.720
of traditional data. So that is, whether it's new or not new to

444
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:47.319
you. I'm always minding new ways
to pull that data in and really get

445
00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:52.440
this kind of robust picture of what
this barrow's doing and you know what the

446
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.119
trends are. How do you think
about leveraging the data? I mean there's

447
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.880
this kind of like more data is
better kind of an intuitive sense, right,

448
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.160
But then there's like what do I
do with all this? And in

449
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.279
the traditional world, like a human
being read these things and kind of made

450
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:07.839
a judgment call if like the rent, the rent and utilities payments, was

451
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:14.720
you know, sufficient enough evidence of
financial um you know, savviness and responsibility

452
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:18.519
to outweigh maybe a low credit score
or a low cash flow in a business

453
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:21.200
or something like this. How do
I weigh those up. How do you

454
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:26.240
think about in the in the context
of microseconds and online and maybe automated decisioning,

455
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:27.720
how do you think about how do
we take advantage of this? In

456
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.960
some ways, broader set of data
is like more debilitating in terms of how

457
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:34.079
do I make a set of rules
that actually you can leverage all these things

458
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.279
and know how to weigh things off. So I'm curious how you think about

459
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.400
taking those things and actually making the
best use of them in terms of making

460
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:44.920
good credit decisions. I think it's
layering. So you know, your your

461
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.079
core data is always going to be
key, right you always you know,

462
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.480
for certain types of lending, you're
always going to want to know what that

463
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.480
FICO is and does this kind of
pit my mimax threshold for a specific product.

464
00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:00.680
But it's really taking individual data attributes
and laying on top, right,

465
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.319
So what am I looking for?
What's the objective with this data? You

466
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.559
know, we can specifically talk about
the customer that's in the kind of fine

467
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:12.359
outpay later space as well, that's
maybe made really great progress on improving their

468
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:17.920
credit stance and coming up into a
place where maybe I was subcrime, but

469
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:22.559
I'm no longer subcrime of bringing that
in and saying what are those current outstanding

470
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.640
debts that they have so we have
a better picture of their DTI. If

471
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.359
it's a business and we're looking at
a business again that maybe has been in

472
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.799
business for a short period of time, and we're pulling in alternative data points

473
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.920
on what's the financial health of this
business long term, there really needs to

474
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.640
be some I'm not making a definitive
decision only on that data. I'm actually

475
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:47.319
saying what I take this barrower at
their current FICO and with their file.

476
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.599
If yes, then I'm going to
start layering on additional parts of that data.

477
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.640
You know, if I wouldn't take
them with their existing data, there's

478
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.680
not going to be a ton of
alternative data that's going to help me support

479
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.400
that except for we're you know where
we're talking about a finophile so um,

480
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.799
I think you have to think of
it as you know, instead of it

481
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.759
being in an ice cream Sunday,
the scoop of ice cream, it's the

482
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:12.759
sprinkles and the cherry and all the
other things that come on top that make

483
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.440
that ice cream taste better. But
you could easily have it, you know,

484
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.559
with or without sprinkles all right.
That's uh, now I'm hungry.

485
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:25.720
I had to go to have an
ice cream Sunday. It's not an analogy

486
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:27.759
I've heard before, but I like
it. Jim, was there anything else

487
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.440
you wanted to cover it? I
feel like we've we've covered things. Um,

488
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:33.839
I've covered a lot of ground.
But you know, I've got a

489
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.759
couple questions. I always ask at
the end, but I like to ask

490
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:38.160
my guests if there's anything else I
wanted to talk about or felt like we

491
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.799
missed from our earlier conversations. I
don't think so. I mean, I

492
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.039
think this really covers the you know, the majority of the things that I'm

493
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.039
really passionate about. I think,
um, you know, the one thing

494
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.720
that we did talk about, and
you have to decide if this serves the

495
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.279
audience well, is the importance of
a fintech relationship at the community bank level.

496
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.440
Is that there's a lot of fintech
out there that are just creating kind

497
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:07.359
of bills and whistles. They're not
really supporting an institution. I think,

498
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:09.599
you know, one of your questions
on the PDF that Alison had shared was

499
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.640
is you know, what are some
of the bold predictions or what are some

500
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:20.440
of the trends that are happening,
and I strongly feel passionate that in order

501
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.240
for fintech to be wildly successful and
vice versa, community banks to be wildly

502
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:30.279
successful as well, as we have
to find this intersection where fintech is supporting

503
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:35.960
a bank in a local community,
where those you know, individuals in the

504
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.039
community have a strong relationship with the
bank. This is definitely a generational conversation

505
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:45.240
because I think that there are some
generations, future generations that won't know a

506
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:51.680
relationship with a community bank. But
those individuals who have that strong family tie

507
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:57.279
to a community into a bank will
only benefit from our actual banks having fintech

508
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:02.000
legs underneath them to support them to
have this online, robust presence. It's

509
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:06.839
challenging, right, It's challenging for
community banks who have, you know,

510
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.920
maybe they have a smaller community around
them to say, yeah, we've got

511
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.559
an app, we've got online banking, or competing with the you know,

512
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:19.079
the larger big boxes in the marketplace. But with the fintech partnership and having

513
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.240
those you know, those relationships behind
them, it really helps them get to

514
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.559
that kind of um, I've got
my technology behind me place. If you

515
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:32.480
think of that fintech and community bank
partnership being so critical. How do you

516
00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:37.880
know you talk about the FinTechs that
support the community bank and those that are

517
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.319
building bells and whistles are not,
as you know, focused on delivering value.

518
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.920
How do you find the right partner? I feel like there's this kind

519
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.400
of multi stage thing to an effective
community bank fintech partnership, which is like

520
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:51.359
finding the right partner that's a good
fit, which can go wrong, um,

521
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.680
you know, doing diligence, getting
implementation and then actually like getting technically

522
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:59.480
integrated and then actually delivering value to
customers. And I think these things can

523
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.799
fall down any any step along there. You can you know, not you

524
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:06.200
find a partner that doesn't add value. You can have a partner that doesn't

525
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:07.360
make it through diligence, it isn't
really going to support you. You have

526
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.079
a partner that's got software that doesn't
really deliver value in the end or can't

527
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.360
get implement. How do you think
about finding the right partners and managing those

528
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.400
relationships for success? Because I feel
like it's true. I think there's a

529
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.159
ton of opportunity for FinTechs to add
value to community banks and really strengthen the

530
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.320
position of those kind of pillars of
the community quite literally, UM, but

531
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.760
how do you find the partners that
are going to be value add that way

532
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:30.199
and those that are going to be
more of a bells and whistles distraction and

533
00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:34.599
not a real value add Because it
doesn't doesn't seem obvious to me how you

534
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.519
do that. I think that's what
probably one of the biggest challenges, so

535
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:43.159
that you know, smaller or community
regional banks are going to try and come

536
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.760
up against UM. I never want
to downplay the due diligence. I think

537
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.920
that's one of the biggest areas where
some of those flaws come out is in

538
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.559
that due diligence. And so I
would definitely encourage anyone who says I want

539
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:59.119
to bring on this cool piece of
tech and they rush past that due diligence

540
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:01.719
of like I've got to have an
now now. The due diligence is incredibly

541
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.639
important. The other piece of it, and I've always had really great success

542
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:10.480
with this UM is really leaning into
your network and leaning into your relationships with

543
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.440
the other institutions in your area or
in your region, to say, how

544
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:17.360
are you solving for this? You
know, this is kind of maybe an

545
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:21.440
objective of our banks or you know, kind of a real pain point for

546
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.840
our customers. What is it that
you're doing to solve for that, and

547
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:28.800
using your network and using your peers
to help, you know, kind of

548
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.960
identify what they're doing, because it
certainly isn't going to be a pain point

549
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.320
just for you, It's largely going
to be a pain point for many of

550
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.519
your peers as well. So I
think between a combination of doing the right

551
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:45.239
due diligence taking your time to find
it, even though it may be something

552
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:46.639
that seems, you know, so
cool that you have to get it out

553
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:52.280
to market asap, is make sure
that you walk yourself through that due diligence.

554
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:55.400
All right, I like it.
Yeah, I will say, having

555
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.119
worked with a lot of financial incisions
point, I've never found any that skimped

556
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.480
on the dug doesn't feel like took
place admitting skimp um, at least not

557
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:07.119
from the technical side, although I
think maybe the customer experience part of that

558
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.519
is an area where you know,
there's so much focus on just like building

559
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:14.800
your product internally, the BSA,
the AML, the you know, the

560
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:17.000
enterprise viability for a startup like God, these guys have enough money, are

561
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:20.920
they going to be around? Or
we can be compliance bars, and then

562
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:23.079
there's a question like how do we
actually turn this thing into value for our

563
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:30.920
customers that sometimes is not is not
as fully vetted at the time as maybe

564
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.440
the like technical diligence pieces can be, because those all parts always have felt

565
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.519
i want say, overly burdensome,
but never have felt like they were being

566
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:42.119
skimped upon. In my experience,
I think that's a good thing. I

567
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.519
know it's it's kind of frustrated from
a partner, but you know, there's

568
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.400
the things that come out in the
wash when you're going through those process um,

569
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.599
you know internally as I think they're
incredibly important. I actually and I

570
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:59.239
will say for any of the fintech's
listening as someone who's been through the process

571
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.239
a lot um, I felt like
it made us stronger as an institution is

572
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:07.159
an organization like they were. It's
kind of like going through SoCs compliance or

573
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:08.800
even to be honest, some of
the preparations for an IPO, it's like

574
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:12.960
they're they're painful, but they're they're
good controls, are good oversight, and

575
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:14.960
you go, oh, we do
need to be better on this or that

576
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:17.760
or the other, and typically you're
stronger for it on the other side,

577
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.320
and it gets easier over time because
you've you know, the diligenous processes are

578
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:24.800
not that different. Everybody has their
own unique question. But once you've get

579
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.119
to the place where you're ready for
it and you go, hey, we're

580
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.199
confident that we have the information you
need and we have the controls and the

581
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:34.719
processes and it would be good answers
um, then it becomes a little more

582
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:37.400
straightforward to do. But it's if
you can't do it, then you don't

583
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:42.360
belong in the in the financial services
space in my opinion. Definitely know the

584
00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.159
things that also come out on sides
of you know, when your vendors asking

585
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:49.000
questions of how you know, what
do you do in these scenarios or how

586
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.000
would you handle X, y Z, And you're like, oh yeah,

587
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.320
like went straight through my heart because
we do need to be thinking about that.

588
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.079
And so I think that challenge,
both from a good vendor and a

589
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.320
good partner, makes everybody longer.
All right, I got three closing questions

590
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:06.559
I ask everybody at the end of
the podcast, So here we go.

591
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:09.760
I actually love the answers to these
Sometimes are my favorites. Um, what

592
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:14.440
is the best piece of career advice
you've ever got? If you don't like

593
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.360
the view, keep driving. If
you don't like the view, I've never

594
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.960
had a driving analogy for career advice. Something it'll, it'll. I've got

595
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.159
of all kinds of analogies for you, Jack ice cream, I've got the

596
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.199
driving. If you don't like the
view, if you don't like where you're

597
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:29.320
at, you don't like, Um, you know the outcome of the you

598
00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:31.760
know the project that you just ran, Um, there will be another project.

599
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:36.920
Um if you you know, got
maybe some CSAT results back on your

600
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:40.039
team and it wasn't great. Um, you know, go through some improvements,

601
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:45.199
go through some training, because nothing
is ever permanent. So just keep

602
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.079
going. I like it. Keep
going. You don't like the view,

603
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:52.320
keep driving? All right. Second
question, what's the best piece of advice

604
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.480
you've ever gotten about the consumer banking
space. It's been it's been a number

605
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.519
of years in consumer lending. I
imagine you've gotten some good advice. I

606
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.840
have gotten some good advice. And
I think about this one probably at least

607
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.480
once a week. It is don't
ever assume that you are your target audience.

608
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.519
Oh, I love that we love
to think about. This is what

609
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:13.079
I would want, This is you
know, this is the way that I

610
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.000
would talk to a customer. But
it's because it comes from you, know,

611
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.400
your perspective and the privilege that you
have. So don't assume that you're

612
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.880
a part of your audience. Oh
I love that, and I think it's

613
00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:30.639
especially true in in financial services because
even the savvy audience usually doesn't understand our

614
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:34.159
products as well as I mean,
you know, like before I got into

615
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:39.000
this space and say like helock helan
credit card, debit card charge, I

616
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.960
didn't understand you different products. And
there's so much as just underlying knowledge that

617
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.920
you forget that you even have when
you're in the business that you bring to

618
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.800
bear in those things, and not
not just like are you the insame financial

619
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:55.199
stratis? You know category, do
you have the same kind of income band,

620
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:58.880
you have the same kind of credit
score that somebody that your customer might

621
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:01.440
have, but just a like knowledge
of the products. It's maybe an industry

622
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:05.719
more than any others where there's this
real gap and knowledge between the insiders and

623
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:07.960
the average consumer. And it is
a huge mistake. You're right to to

624
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:13.840
assume that everybody is you or has
your knowledge or background or desires or wants.

625
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.360
And that is a lot of a
lot of startup companies do like to

626
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.119
like they build for themselves. And
there's maybe no industry where it's a bigger

627
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:24.840
mistake than this one. That's a
that's a fabulous piece of advice. All

628
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:30.159
right, last question, what's one
bold prediction for the future. I think

629
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:32.599
that we're going to be more and
more disjointed when it comes to tech with

630
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:38.920
our consumer bases. I think that
businesses have gotten really comfortable with having a

631
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:44.079
large amount of wallet share, especially
in the financial services place, you know,

632
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.639
where they just expect that because someone
has an auto loan or a mortgage,

633
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:50.880
that's where they're going to keep your
checking account. So I think that

634
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.800
banks will need to be more proactive
about keeping that wallet share. Right,

635
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:58.800
What do I need to do to
not only earn that but keep it?

636
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.920
Because we're in this instant gratification I
can open an account anywhere, I can

637
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.719
get a loan online anywhere. So
I think that we're going to see a

638
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.159
continued spread of wallet share. And
I guess I think that we're going to

639
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.920
have to I say we universally as
banks really have to fight for that and

640
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:21.559
make sure that you know, we're
honoring our consumers and servicing them to the

641
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:24.840
levels that they expect. I think
it's such a fascinating piece of advice.

642
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.400
I've seen this, you know,
with the number of neo banks and the

643
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.719
savings accounts. I mean there's lots
of whereas the places that this happens.

644
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:36.639
But you know, I used to
talk to banks about there what they called

645
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:38.840
the alpha and their beta, like
how much their deposit base was actually sensitive

646
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:42.519
to changes in interest rates, and
like the big banks was like a zero

647
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.039
man, it doesn't matter what happened
interest rates. I don't pay any interests,

648
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:47.480
and nobody leaves. And now when
there's like fifteen neo banks offering me

649
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.719
four point four percent and interest rates
ever so much in the last you know,

650
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:54.719
eighteen months, that you go,
huh, yeah, four points is

651
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:59.960
like it's not like somebody's offering me
point seven five and you're offering me zero,

652
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:01.719
Like somebody's offering me four and a
half. And I think there,

653
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:06.559
you know, you're actually seen in
the latest results that deposits are leaving some

654
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.440
of the big banks for the first
time substantially in many, many years.

655
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:10.960
In that kind of sense that you
have to keep earning it and there are

656
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.039
competitors and what are you going to
do? I think is maybe more real

657
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.679
even to the big guys now that
it has been in a long time.

658
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:21.440
But let me ask the fall up
question to that, which is how do

659
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.079
you do that? Like? What
is do you have advice on when you

660
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:24.800
see that and go, hey,
well, I've got to not only earn

661
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:29.920
it once but continually earned the right
to maintain wallet share and the next product

662
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.320
and to keep your business. What's
your advice on how you actually go about

663
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:35.920
achieving that? Because it's a I
think you're right, But then the question

664
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:37.400
actually is like, Okay, I
need to do that, but what do

665
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.639
I do to achieve such an outcome? Yeah? I think if you're not

666
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:45.000
doing a competitive analysis on a routine
basis, I challenge my team to look

667
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.000
at this on a weekly basis.
What are your direct competitors doing today?

668
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:52.480
What rates are they offering, what
products are they offering? What term are

669
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:55.880
they offering? Right, let's let's
get really down into the nitty gritty,

670
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.840
because I want to make sure that
we're the best at what we're offering.

671
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:01.760
But it goes back to what we
talked about earlier, is that we have

672
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:07.840
these emphatic, you know, customer
interactions and engagements where we're meeting their needs.

673
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:12.599
So I like to think about,
you know, competition in two different

674
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.840
ways, right, active and reactive. Are we being reactive when a customer

675
00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:19.719
says I'm going to pull my deposit
business out of your account, and then

676
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.000
we say, okay, okay,
okay, well you know we're going to

677
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:27.159
meet the terms that you want.
Are we even proactive and actively increasing our

678
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:31.199
interest rate on a high yield savings
or on a CD or on an auto

679
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:34.760
product? Right? I think that
we have to look at all of those

680
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.239
things and say meet and exceed the
bar, but also know what everyone else

681
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:43.280
is doing. It seems pretty basic
at a high level, but you'd be

682
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:45.960
surprised at the number of people who
don't know what their competitors in that market

683
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:50.480
are doing. Well, it's not
it's not a lot of transparency, like

684
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.800
to understand like what rates are really
being offered some of them there are.

685
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.679
You can go like high yield savings, like what interest rates being offered on

686
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.760
an auto loan to a particular consumer, Like people aren't publishing the rate cards.

687
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.519
You really have an easy way to
know that. We certainly have seen

688
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:06.400
the same thing struggling with finding information
and it's crucial, right because there it

689
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:12.079
is a consumers are. If anything
is driving the you know, the kind

690
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:16.840
of diversification of services and relationships that
customers have, it's probably the simple ability

691
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:21.320
to comparison shop and say, hey, I've got a product. I'm going

692
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:22.920
to go look and see if I
can get a better rate somewhere else and

693
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:24.920
if I can, Like that used
to be hard to do and it's now

694
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:29.400
easy to do and people do it
and so they know pretty quickly, and

695
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:30.719
so you got to find a way
to have the knowledge about what that market

696
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:34.760
looks like. Otherwise you can't compete
with something if you don't know what it

697
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.039
is. And that's just kind of
the quality. I think that also helps

698
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.920
too when we talk about secret shopping
and going out and you know, applying

699
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:44.639
for things. And I wouldn't encourage
you or anyone else to go and apply

700
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:46.760
for an auto loan every week,
but I think you can kind of get

701
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:52.599
downstream in that online application journey or
call the bank and say hey, I'm

702
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.159
interested in this product. You know, what are you guys offering and have

703
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:59.480
some educated conversations absolutely well to This
was a fascinating conversation. I think we

704
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:01.079
covered a pre wide writed topics.
Thank you again for making the time and

705
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:06.159
joining us today. Thank you so
much for having me. Upstart partners with

706
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.880
banks and credit unions to help grow
their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a modern

707
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:15.519
all digital lending experience. As the
average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it

708
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:21.960
only makes sense that their bank does
too. Upstarts AI lending platform uses sophisticated

709
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:28.039
machine learning models to more accurately identify
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710
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:34.360
models. With fraud rates near zero, upstarts all digital experience reduces manual processing

711
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:38.719
for banks and offers a simple and
convenient experience for consumers. Whether you're looking

712
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:44.400
to grow and enhance your existing personal
and auto lending programs or you're just getting

713
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:49.280
started, Upstart can help. Upstart
offers an end to end solution that can

714
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.840
help you find more credit worthy borrowers
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715
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:59.320
underwriting, onboarding, loan closing,
and servicing, It's all possible with Upstart

716
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.960
in your quarter. Learn more about
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717
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.960
and growing your business by visiting upstart
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718
00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:15.400
upstart dot com slash foward dash Banks. You've been listening to Leaders and lending

719
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:19.559
from Upstart. Make sure you never
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720
00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:22.719
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721
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:27.159
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722
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:28.239
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