Going Fee-Free: Reimagining Member Satisfaction

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You're listening to Leaders in Lending from
Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer

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lenders grow their programs and improve their
product offerings. Each week, here,

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decision makers in the finance industry offer
insights into the future of the lending industry,

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best practices around digital transformation, and
more. Let's get into the show.

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Hello, and welcome to Leaders in
Lending. For those of you who

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don't already know, Jeff Kelner has
passed the reigns of his podcast Microphone,

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and I'm honored to step into his
shoes as the inaugural host in twenty twenty

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four. With that said, I'm
your host Drew Megory and this week's episode

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features my conversation with Stacy Armiho,
one of the winners of the American Bankers

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Most Powerful Women in Credit Unions as
well as the Chief Experience Officer at Amplify

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Credit Union based in Austin, Texas. In this episode, Stacey and I

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talked through her philosophy of having a
younger, more diverse demographic within leadership teams,

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as well as talking a bit about
why she thinks PFI or primary financial

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institution, is a thing of the
past and how organizations need to pivot their

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mindset around PFI. And lastly,
we really dive into the thought of going

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fee free on all deposit products and
how that translates to the balance sheet and

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income. I hope you enjoy our
conversation as much as I did. And

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without further ado, here's my conversation
with Stacy. Hi, Stacey, welcome

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to the podcast and thank you for
making the time to join me today.

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Really appreciate it. Happy to be
here. Awesome. So I think I'm

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going to follow suit in opening our
conversation today as it's been done in prior

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podcast. So as a starting play, Stacey, I don't think many of

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us dreamt of being in the financial
service industry when we were little kids.

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So can you give the listeners a
little bit about your journey to becoming the

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chief experience officer at Amplify Credit Union. Absolutely, it is a non linear

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journey, like so many of the
journeys of others. My background is actually

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in public relations and marketing, so
I spent my entire career before I joined

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at a regional public relations and marketing
agency in Texas, and so I had

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the chance to learn a lot of
different industries. So we worked across a

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wide variety of types of companies,
and I had a wide variety of roles,

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but mostly it was in areas like
marketing and public relations and communications things

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along those lines. It also though, entailed things like strategic plan facilitation and

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interactions with executive teams, things along
those lines. And it's interesting because I

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would never have guessed that could have
qualified me to work inside a financial institution.

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But our CEO, in particular,
has a really different mindset about One

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of his taglines is we're going to
fix what's wrong with banking or we're going

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to die triin. That is sort
of his overall outlook. The irony being

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he has been in banking as long
as I've been alive. So we tell

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this joke during new employee orientation because
it's actually true. He started in banking

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the year I was born, and
so we have sort of a different perspective

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on that. But despite a very
long tenure in one industry, he's sort

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of an innovator as he thinks about
banking. And that's just there's so many

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things that we take for granted in
this industry as truisms that really aren't especially

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in today's day and age and so
he has a different perspective as he assembles

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the executive team about what areas do
we need deep industry expertise, because of

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course you need some of that in
some ways, and then what areas do

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we need brand new thinking? And
so my role became one that was an

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amalgam of what was previously the Chief
Operating Officer and the Senior vice president of

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Digital Transformation. Those two roles are
now roughly what we consider to be the

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Chief Experience Officer, and so my
responsibilities are fourfold. So one is marketing,

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communications and social impact, and that's
see the world I came from.

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The second is retail, so in
our environment that's our branches, contact center,

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and wealth management. The thirdest payments, so all the money movement and

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a none of the credit union.
And then the worth is HR in training.

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So what we call talent theory there
is to put the teams together that

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make the promise to the customer,
the employee in the community with the people

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who keep those promises. So I
spend most of my day sort of going

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across those and it's been going on
six years now, it'll be six years

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this summer, and I actually officially
consider myself a banker today, which is

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something I never thought I could say. Well, there you go. I

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know in many conversations that I have
with people that are in the industry,

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the path to get to where we
are at. Of course, you never

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think that you alluded to that.
There's no way that I would have ever

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been able to get where I'm at
with what I was doing in my previous

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life. So thank you for that. That's quite the laundry list of things

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that are on your to do list
on a day over day basis as well.

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So one thing I wanted to cover
is when we talked in the past,

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is one thing I found very very
intriguing is you know, your philosophy

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on a younger, a more diverse
demographic, and how an institution, and

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I think you called it should represent
the audience in which you aim to serve.

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You we talk a little bit about
your thoughts and your approach to that

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philosophy. So I am a believer
that teams should never create something for someone

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without someone. So in I think
organizations generally have a bad habit of this,

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but I think in particular in banking, we have a bad habit of

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this, where if you look at
who is doing the creating. The people

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doing the creating are one the executive
teams of any of the financial institutions.

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And then more deeply, you know, it's the product teams, it's the

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digital teams, it's the retail teams, it's the people on the ground who

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are coming up with the products.
If we look at the demographics of each

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of those audiences and we compare that
to the demographics of the customers they say

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they want to serve, there's a
huge mismatch between those, and not just

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in age. Right, of course, we're not We can be designing for

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gen Z and decide we maybe need
a little more experience that gen Z would

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possibly have in order to do that. That doesn't mean you have to have

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a one for one, but you
can't have a team that is mostly homogenous

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in age, geography, gender,
ethnicity, education status, background, financial

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status, all those things. The
way we think about how our audience consumes

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and interprets information is not just so
simple as a couple of demographic data points.

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And then we've got teams who are
all in one geography, mostly they

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come from one educational background. Their
lived experience, in a variety of ways,

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looks mostly the same and we believe
they're going to create a product effectively

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for somebody that doesn't match any of
those things. And it's interesting to me

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because as customers, think about ourselves
as customers, and someone who doesn't relate

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to us in any kind of way
says, here's what you need. How

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do we feel about that? As
customers usually really not good. We usually

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feel very not good about that.
But as institutions, we somehow believe we're

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exempt from that. So if we
want to, like our industry says,

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we want to appeal to younger consumers. We want to appeal to underserved communities,

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we want to appeal to new demographics, we want to appeal to people

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that have different technology habits. We
say all of those things, but our

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teams still look the same as they
did when we were mostly doing business out

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of a brick and mortar situation and
in a limited array of lending products or

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deposit products. And I think if
we're willing to think a little differently and

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pull people in our organization in different
ways, what we come up with is

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significantly different and a lot more likely
to connect to our consumer No. I

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find that very fascinating. That type
of approach is one I'm sure many many

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would disagree with. However, I
agree with that, and I think something

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to expand off of that is in
regards to the product stuff and let's talk

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PFI or primary financial institution. We
both know that the conversion of PFI is

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something that is very very low in
our industry right, something of the past,

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but that discussion, of course is
still top of mind with leadership teams

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within the boardroom. But with the
different generations, and you alliterated a few

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of them, so you have you
know, Boom, gen X, gen

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Z millennials and gen Z of course
now being that like new wave of how

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banking is done or how banking is
going to be in the future. But

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with you think about the thought of
the evolution of technology, what do you

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think that the consumer now thinks about
how they are going to manage their money

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and their banking relationships. In correlation
to PFI conversion, I think we have

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to consider who PFI serves. So
of course banks want you to have a

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preferred financial institution, and of course
they want to be the preferred financial institution.

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The reason banks want that is because
usually banks are really good at one,

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maybe two things, and then the
rest they're kind of just okay at

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And so they'd really like to believe
as a consumer, you're going to get

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really excited about something and that's the
reason you're going to choose. Then that's

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the thing they're really good at.
That is the market they can win.

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And then they're going to hope you're
just kind of lazy and if I just

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put this next to it, you're
going to say, oh, okay,

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I'll take that too. Oh okay, I'll take that too. And those

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are the products that aren't really as
good as all of the other alternatives out

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there, or maybe they're not as
affordable, whatever the case might be.

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And we're hoping that that proximity is
what gets you into that product. That

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whole philosophy serves the institution, not
the customer. And any time that you

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orient yourselves around a strategy that pits
your customer's interests against your institution's interest your

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customer is going to win, especially
in today's tech enabled environment. So let's

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turn the clock back a little bit. Preferred financial institution used to have a

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customer value. It had a customer
value when working across different financial institutions was

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so challenging, right, and so
there was a true level of convenience to

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having all of your financial products in
one home because that actually was beneficial to

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you. That is not true today, and that's definitely not going to be

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true in a world of open banking. So anybody who is not following what

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the CFPB is doing and isn't recognizing
that, just the same cell phone companies

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used to rest on their laurels because
it was just so darn hard to move

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your service and you had to give
up your phone number, and that's really

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what people wanted was to keep their
phone number. The minute you could keep

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your phone number and change providers,
the world changed. We in banking better

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be ready for that because that is
coming. And really, who wants to

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make money that way? We believe
it matters how you make money, and

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do you really want to make money
hoping your customer is too lazy to go

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find something that is better for them. I think we can be better than

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that. As institutions, we should
hold ourselves to a higher standard and we

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can be better than that. So
what does that mean? Though? That

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means we have to realign our revenue
strategies, so we cannot rely on some

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sort of passive level of let's say, non interest income that comes from this

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ancillary product. That is part of
our strategy to become PFI if we believe

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as Amplified does. Every product must
live and die on its own merits.

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And that was a relatively controversial point
of view when we started talking about it

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four or five years ago. I
can't remember exactly how long. And so

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every product has to live and die
on its own. That means if a

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customer interacts with us around that product
and it's not the best product for them,

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and it's not compelling to our customer, then we shouldn't be in that

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business. No, that's not something
that we should do. That means,

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as credit unions in particular, we
have to be willing to stop doing trying

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to be all things to all people. I do think credit unions are getting

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a little better at this, But
as an industry, we have a bad

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habit of trying to spread the peanut
butter so thin. And we need to

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work across all these different areas and
have all these products, and the odds

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that you have the resources to really
win across all those products is next to

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mil and so get brave, narrow
your product list to the things that you

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can do really well and then create
partnerships like have the willingness to say,

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you know what, we actually really
aren't good at student loans, but I

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can tell you who is, and
let me make a referral for you.

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That is how you serve your customer
by actually putting their best interests at heart,

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and not just in the nice,
cheery way that we all put in

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marketing materials, but in the way
that I can say from a revenue point

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of view, here's how I'm going
to win by putting my customer's interest first.

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So if your institution is still trying
to plan around and count on PFI,

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that is yesterday's conversation. That battle
has been lost. That is irrelevant

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to today's customer. Rethink your strategy
and do something new. No, I

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agree, the thing of the past
where Grandpa opened bank account at amplify his

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children's than their children, that is
a thing of the past to your exact

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point of everybody has everything at their
fingertips and they're not going to follow suit

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just because mom, dad, so
on and so forth did throughout their banking

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life. So I want to expand
a little bit more on that of one

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thing that you talked about is making
money. Like everybody within financial institutions,

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of course likes to make money,
and of course additional products do bring growth

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and subsequently added income. Right,
but everyone knows another component to income on

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the balance sheet is fee generation,
and a lot of institutions generate fee income

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from product growth. However, your
organization has decided to become fee free,

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do you have any insights on one
the thoughts behind that, and then two,

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what are the benefits that that could
bring of not having any fees on

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any type of your products? So
I'm going to have to restrain myself because

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i could talk about this for hours. So the first thing I would say

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is where this idea came from.
It actually came from some original customer research

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we did back in twenty eighteen.
The question we asked was what makes a

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compelling checking in savings account because it
counts at accounts an account. And it's

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interesting because we started asking this question
before the liquidity crisis, and all of

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a sudden, we all really care
about the answer to this question. And

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what we found was one of our
theories was security. How important is security

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to a consumer around things like cybersecurity
and whatnot? Yes, it's important.

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And two, I assume my bank
has it. It is not a reason

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I'll buy it, is merely a
reasonall leave. That was one thing that

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we found so and we already had
strong security. We feel good about that.

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Numbers two and three that really jumped
forward for us were rewards and fees.

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I mean, this is not surprising, right Am I getting rewards on

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my account? Or am I paying
too many fees? We decided we did

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not want to play the rewards game. We feel like the rewards game is

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it is an arms race. In
the minute some other institution offers point twenty

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five more BIPs in rewards than you
do, it's no longer a compelling offer.

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And so if what we're trying to
do is create a sustainable, affordable

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level of funding for our lending operations, which is ultimately the endgame, rewards

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was not the way we felt like
we could do it. So we looked

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at fees and said, okay,
well, we already have a fee averse

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membership. So this was considered One
of the weaknesses of our business model was

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that our members were already naturally relatively
averse to fees. And when I say

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fees, what I'm talking about are
any fees on any deposit product, So

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think monthly service fees, overdraft fees, checking the account fees, wire transfer

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fees, all the things. So
we were going through this and we thought,

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okay, well avoiding fees, maybe
we could promote our lower fees,

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or we can talk about how we
don't have as many of them, et

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cetera. And our CEO said what
if we just got rid of them?

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And we all laughed like that's actually
how the meeting went, and we were

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like, oh, Kendall's having a
bad day. But then it was like

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kind of couldn't get it out of
our mind. So then started digging in

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like, oh, okay, how
much revenue is this for us? How

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much fee income is this really for
us? And Doug Doug Doug And fast

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forward a year and a half and
what we figured out was we can give

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up this fee income. And this
is not just so our industry. When

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we talk about fees, often people
believe we're talking about just overdraft fees,

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and our case, we're talking about
all deposit fees on all deposit products of

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any kype for any balance or any
transaction behavior. We turned off ultimately fifty

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different fees, and in fact,
it was actually a little bit hard to

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do from a technology point of view
because all of our systems are designed to

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maximize fe income, right, because
that's what the institution wants. And so

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we actually had to work with our
vendors to sort of reconfigure a few of

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our systems so that they wouldn't charge
our members' fees. And really our trade

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off here was okay, well,
obviously customers don't like fees, right,

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this is not new information. But
can they be compelled enough to an institution

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that never ever charges them and there's
nothing the customer has to do to avoid

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them. It actually really is free
checking, which our industry has talked about

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forever and we're the only ones I've
ever found that have it so. Free

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checking, and our opinion is a
checking account that will never cost you any

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money no matter what you do with
the account. That's a free checking account.

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It's not an account that comes with
a thousand asterixes. So that's what

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led us there, and so it
took us a while to figure out how

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to build that into our strategy.
They are two wins we were looking for

246
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out of this. One is obviously
we wanted more low cost deposits. Right,

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if you can get more checking accounts, you getting free money that improves

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your net interest margin. This is
whatever institution wants to have happened. Number

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two, we want value driven income
for our organization, so interchange income.

250
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For example, if I can get
you to open more checking accounts, then

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I can get you to activate more
debit cards, and I can get you

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to transact on those debit cards.
The interchange income I can get from that

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and what that can offset. So
interchange income is value driven income. That

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is value to a retailer to be
able to accept a payment and make money

255
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on what they do. As different
from a monthly maintenance fee is not a

256
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value to a customer. That's a
penalty that is not a value. And

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for us, similarly, the more
liquidity we can get, the more loans

258
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we can do. Our business model. We have originate cell service model,

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So that means when the market is
working the way the market typically works before

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the liquidity crunch, let me put
that caveat on it. When it's working

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that way, we actually can originate
our entire balance sheet in one year in

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high quality loans, and we sell
the vast majority of those to the secondary

263
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market, and we earn servicing income
and gain on sale from loan investors.

264
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That's value driven non interest income.
So why not realign our business models toward

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things where we only make money when
our customer makes money. When our customer

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wins, we win. I know
that should not be such a revolutionary idea,

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but in banking, most of our
business models are. We really hope

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our customer doesn't notice that they've left
six million dollars on deposit in that checking

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account that's making nothing, because that's
super valuable to us, and we don't

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want them to take that money and
put it into an instrument where they could

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actually get decent return on it.
So we just hope they don't know lazy

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money. Right, this is what
our industry talks about. Let's build business

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models that have a little more courage
than that. Let's build business models that

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speak to our customer and what they
want to accomplish. It sounds like this

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type of approach to is the natural
way of obtaining this PFI thing that we

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talked about without exhausting any efforts.
We hope, Yes, I'm interested in

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the approach leading up to this.
I know you guys were laughing in the

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boardroom when your CEO brought it up. Of a lot of institutions, this

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is part of their budget, right, They have fixed fee income that they

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see trend over time and can make
an assumption going into a new year.

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What was that conversation like eliminating those
fees? Where did you think you were

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going to recoup some of the income
that you were generating from that And hasn't

283
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been successful post two or so years
of you doing so. So a couple

284
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of things. One is I would
point to the long timeline over which this

285
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happened for us. Yeah, so
we were discussing the findings of that research

286
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at the very end of twenty eighteen, and we proposed this and got approval

287
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.839
at the board level in twenty twenty
and we didn't go live with it until

288
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two two twenty two. So what
we call fee free day now is February

289
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.720
second of twenty twenty two is when
we went live with fee free. So

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00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.559
that's a really long time horizon over
which to think about this idea process,

291
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:45.200
the implications. We spent almost an
entire year figuring out how can we replace

292
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this fee income? What are the
pieces we actually engage some consultants after we

293
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.960
had our business case put together to
tell us what's wrong with it, because

294
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no one's ever done this before,
and we're like, okay, if we're

295
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missing something significant here. One thing
that we said constantly is this is a

296
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one way door. You cannot choose
to go fee free and talk about why

297
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.599
that is a moral decision as much
as it is a financial decision or a

298
00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:12.559
product or a marketing decision. You
can't do that and then say, oops,

299
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.200
this didn't work out the way that
we thought from a financial perspective,

300
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we're going to come back and start
reinstating fees. So we were very deliberate

301
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in how we decided to walk through
this process. The reason we say it's

302
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a moral decision is because one of
the things we learned over the course of

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that long due diligence period is who
pays these fees? Spoiler alert, it's

304
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not the people with money. The
people with money in your institution are not

305
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.000
paying a dollar for any of these
kind of fees. They don't overdraft their

306
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accounts. If they do, it
gets waived. They maintain balances that avoid

307
00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.319
any monthly service fee, etc.
That is not who's paying fees in your

308
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.200
institution. And we in particular,
dug into who's paying overdraft fees, and

309
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.039
what we learned was roughly eighty five
percent or so of our customer base never

310
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:03.039
used overdraft like it just wasn't even
thing. Of the remainder the ten percent

311
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.559
is something like that used it.
I would characterize it as designed. Yeah,

312
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:07.799
so a couple times a year,
you know, something happened a couple

313
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.240
times a year. It's a convenience
whatever. But a tiny portion of our

314
00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:15.720
membership, I want to say it
was around three percent delivered the vast majority

315
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:22.079
of overdraft income that our institution collected. And when you really dig into it,

316
00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.440
what you realize is there are people
who are using overdraft protection like a

317
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.279
line of credit. Like that is
essentially how it's being used. And all

318
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.799
we would have had to do if
we were really curious, we could have

319
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.079
just asked our contact center agents.
They could have named who our top ten

320
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.000
overdraft users were, because these are
the people who call every month and ask

321
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.240
can I get that fee waived,
how can you help me, etc.

322
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We're a credit union. Our mission
is to improve the financial lives of our

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members and the strength of our communities. That's what we're here to do.

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I cannot justify that as a strategy
and pretend that that's what we're doing as

325
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.599
a marketing idea. Right, started
from this, how can we make checking

326
00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.839
in savings more compelling? But if
a caame a mission and so after we

327
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.319
figured that out, and then we're
going through all the diligence, and we

328
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:11.559
said, well, okay, now
we've realized this is just kind of wrong

329
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.599
to make money this way. So
we're going to not anymore, and we

330
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.200
need to make sure that we can
do that in a financially viable and sustainable

331
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way. So what we're not going
to do while we shift our business model,

332
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.519
we're not going to put the viability
of the credit union at risk.

333
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.599
Right, We're not going to make
some dramatic move and do something significant that

334
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.720
puts all the rest of our business
in a difficult spot. We had a

335
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.279
couple advantages. One is this type
of income was only four percent of our

336
00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.680
total income picture for institutions of our
size, more typically it's around twenty five

337
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.079
percent. So I mentioned our membership
is already kind of feaverse, so this

338
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.200
was already a smaller bite of our
income budget than it otherwise would have been.

339
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:51.519
The offset was those two things improved
that interest to margin and interchange income.

340
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:56.119
Between those two things, we projected
that we could actually offset the amount

341
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.559
of fee income that we would forego. And as it relates to results,

342
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.480
the most recent data that I have
handy was we did it kind of a

343
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.240
full analysis at one year post fee
free, and what we figured out was,

344
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:11.240
if our bed is we're going to
grow checking in savings accounts faster than

345
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.559
we otherwise would have if we hadn't
gone fee free, we said, all

346
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.799
right, here's how much we normally
would have grown checking in savings accounts.

347
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.559
Anything above that baseline we're going to
attribute to fee free. And where we

348
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.160
landed was we grew savings accounts five
percent faster and checking accounts eight percent faster

349
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.160
than above baseline. Now, granted, let's remember the timing I mentioned.

350
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.200
We launched this in two two twenty
two. Let's look at that liquidity or

351
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.240
crunch and what happened to inflation and
interest rates over the course of that same

352
00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:40.680
timeframe. So it was really hard
to isolate exactly kind of what did this

353
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:45.319
change cause versus all those other environmental
factors. But even when you strip all

354
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.920
of that out, what we said
was this is going to be a slow

355
00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:49.480
burd not a big bang. And
I think that's really what we found it

356
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.519
to be. Is it actually takes
us a long time for people to understand

357
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.359
when we say free we actually mean
it, because our industry doesn't really mean

358
00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.200
free when our industry says free.
So we've we've learned it actually takes a

359
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.359
couple of exposures to fee free for
somebody to go, oh, yeah,

360
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.480
I'm interested in that. And our
environment has been a success and now it's

361
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.240
baked into our overall picture of how
we approach things. So this is no

362
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.079
more a what are we sacrificing in
what are we doing? It is a

363
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.799
here's our core products and the income
that we can expect and how are we

364
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.960
going to maximize that? That is
awesome, So kudos to you your team.

365
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.960
That definitely does fit the mission of
the membership of credit unions. I

366
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.319
would love to be in the Amplify
office on to to each day. I

367
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.400
mean, considering that's Groundhog today,
you guys have overtaken your fee free day.

368
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.880
Is there like a combination of outfits
that are worn within the branches to

369
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.920
have a little bit of fun?
Okay, now there will be because that's

370
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.200
a fantastic idea. I'm glad I
gave a good idea there, but thank

371
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.720
you, Stacey. I think this
is a good spot to transition to.

372
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.279
As we've done in prior podcasts,
I've always closed out the podcast with a

373
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.480
list of three different questions. I, however, am going to switch them

374
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:02.000
up a little bit and compare uson
and to what Jeff once did is So,

375
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:04.759
since Upstart is technology company, can
you talk a little bit about what

376
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:11.599
is the latest and greatest either application
or type of technology gadget that you cannot

377
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:15.559
absolutely live without? Okay, I'm
actually I'm going to pivot a minute on

378
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.880
this, So Okay, My actual
technology I cannot live without is my fantastic

379
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.720
speaker, because I love music and
I believe in maintaining your energy all day

380
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.240
long, and so that's my go
to on the regular. But the tech

381
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.839
gadget that's on my mind, especially
even as a banker, is it's actually

382
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.920
my son's. So my son is
nine, and he has a VR headset,

383
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.839
okay, and it is fascinating to
watch him play his VR headset.

384
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.559
And the reason it's fascinating is because
he plays these games where you're connected to

385
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:52.480
other users, and our world likes
to decry sort of children and technology and

386
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.799
AI and as if it is this, Oh my gosh, human beings are

387
00:25:55.880 --> 00:26:00.640
becoming increasingly isolated and they'll never gain
the social skills. Children will never get

388
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.799
the social skills they need if they
are using that. And I sat and

389
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.160
listened to him play that game this
past weekend, and I listened to him

390
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.039
negotiate and navigate conflict. I heard
him ask for help, I heard him

391
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.440
intervene on behalf of others. I
certainly heard him having fun. All the

392
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.000
things that you would have typically seen
on a playground I saw him doing in

393
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:22.559
his VR game and even in a
bigger way. And so as I think

394
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.079
about, like what's on my mind
of sort of latest and greatest technologies,

395
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:32.440
it is where that will become an
environment I think, at least similar to

396
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:34.359
the environments that we have when we
pick up our phone and that is its

397
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.240
own environment in the future, where
that's going to become an environment. How

398
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:44.000
are we as institutions prepared to engage. It's probably not the metaverse. Maybe

399
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.559
it is, and maybe it's some
version of that, but I think there's

400
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:51.039
something more creative and interesting and practical. Yeah, I don't know what that

401
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.559
answer is, but that's what that's
what's bubbling in my mind. I agree,

402
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.759
it is fascinating me too. I
also have children, and I'm starting

403
00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.920
to get to that stage of life
work. I feel like pretty tech savvy,

404
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.720
but I see going to my younger
children of how do I do this?

405
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.279
How do you work this piece of
technology? When I thought I should

406
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.519
be the one that's known. So
the evolution of that is definitely fascinating.

407
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.839
Question number two a little bit of
a different direction. If you could switch

408
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.799
your job today with anyone for a
day, who would it be and why

409
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:23.119
If I could change jobs, I
would want to be David Green on NPR.

410
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.000
So he's actually not on MPR anymore. He retired during twenty twenty,

411
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.839
but he was a reporter on NPR
for a really long time, and in

412
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.920
particular, he was what I characterize
as the main street reporter. So I'd

413
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.240
listened to NPR in the mornings while
I'm getting ready, and you hear,

414
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.079
you know, the news of the
day, Here's what's going on from the

415
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.279
Fed, Here's what's going on in
this community, that community, et cetera.

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00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.119
And his stories were always the main
street version of that. So if

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00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:52.079
the lead story was something about inflation, you know, inflation is up,

418
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.559
he was going to interview the guy
who runs the diner and say, tell

419
00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.839
me about are you seeing these pressures
in your business? What's your remain concerned

420
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.200
today? And so this idea of
taking these macro level concepts but then finding

421
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.759
out what's really happening on the ground
and is does that match what we're seeing

422
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.279
and is that a connection? And
I always felt like that would be such

423
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.799
a cool job, is to be
able to sort of take whatever's going on

424
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.559
today and then figuring out the sort
of front row seat for the individual person

425
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.759
impact and then getting to tell that
story. Well, hopefully I can try

426
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:29.559
to make a plug to David Green
to listen to this, to get you

427
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:32.759
to be in his shoes for just
a day on MPR. I would definitely

428
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:37.079
listen to that. So that's awesome. I'm down. Make it happen all

429
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.599
right. Last one, which this
question will be similar to what we've always

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00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:44.680
done, and I'll end here with
it doesn't need to be anything that is

431
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.559
consumer lending. It could be anything
that you wish. What is one bold

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00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:52.039
prediction for the future. I think
my bold prediction for the future, and

433
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.920
you know, I don't know if
this is bold or obvious. So one

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00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.839
of our areas of business is mortgage
lending. That's our biggest and most significant

435
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:03.640
area of our business. Anyone who's
paying attention knows. The National Association of

436
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:08.400
Realtors was recently decided against as it
relates to specifically the commissions that are shared

437
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:14.000
between seller's agents and buyers agents.
And so the organized system of real estate

438
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.880
as we have known it for centuries, at least a century, is in

439
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:26.079
the process of being reimagined. I
can't claim what the implications of that particular

440
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.720
decision or the follow on lawsuits which
everyone has predicted and they're starting to come

441
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.720
out, will mean. What I
do know is businesses that are rooted in

442
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:41.480
a thirty year mortgage and the century
long method of organized real estate better be

443
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.720
paying attention because I feel like this
is not going to be evolutionary change.

444
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.000
This is going to be revolutionary change. And so if you're in the mortgage

445
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.119
lending business and you're not thinking about
what are the other products that I've got

446
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:59.240
besides you know, a traditional,
conforming thirty year mortgage loan, and if

447
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.759
you rely on realtor networks as a
significant part of your referral business to your

448
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:08.039
MLOs and others. Paying attention and
figuring out what next looks like is going

449
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:12.000
to be really important. If we
can learn anything from other industries that have

450
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:18.000
undergone similar transformations. I think what
we can know is there's going to be

451
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.440
providers who will decide they are there
for the interest of the customer and the

452
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.440
customer only in this case, that
is the home buyer, neither the seller's

453
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.400
agent or the buyer's agent. And
do you have products that are ready to

454
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.720
be there for the best interest only
of the customer? And are you ready

455
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.079
to make that pivot. That's really
what's in my mind interesting. I'll have

456
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.160
to follow up with you once the
mortgage industry normalizes just a little bit to

457
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:47.440
see if that does happen. Yeah, that'd be great. Awesome, Well,

458
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.359
Stacey, thank you again for taking
the time to join me today and

459
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:53.640
providing some really great insights. My
pleasure. Thanks for having me. Up

460
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:59.359
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461
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com slash four dash banks that's upstart
slash board dash Banks. You've been listening

473
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.720
to Leaders in Lending from Upstart,
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474
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475
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476
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