How Innovation in Servicing Drives Loyalty

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You're listening to Leaders and Lending from
Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer

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lenders grow their programs and improve their
product offerings. Each week, here,

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decision makers in the finance industry offer
insights into the future of the lending industry,

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best practices around digital transformation, and
more. Let's get into the show.

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Welcome to Leaders in Lending. I'm
your host, Jeff Keltner. This

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week's episode features my conversation with Matt
Vivens, the founder and CEO of Canopy.

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I've been looking forward to this conversation
because Canopy kind of sits on what

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I think of as the overlooked and
underappreciated part of lending, which is the

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servicing side. It's really interesting servicing
platform. But I think importantly we dive

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into a couple of things that are
really interesting. How servicing is really the

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footprint for cross sell and customer relationship
management on an ongoing basis with customers,

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which a really important part with the
financial industry business model. We talk about

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how often kinds of products you can
offer are limited, and I've seen this

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several times by what you're servicing capabilities
can support. So even though you may

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be able to think of an idea
a different kind of loan or a different

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kind of payment structure, really have
to have the servicing platform to be able

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to support that. And finally,
why commercial side servicing could be a little

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harder the consumer and why we've seen
some people kind of mess that up because

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the variety of products and different ways
as are used. So it's thought a

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really interesting exploration of again an sometimes
overlooked part of a learning life cycle,

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the servicing side and all the value
that can be created there. So please

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enjoy my conversation with Matt Vivens.
Matt, welcome to the podcast and thanks

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for making the time to join us
today. Thanks Jeff, really happy to

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be here. I'm excited for this
conversation because I feel like a lot of

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the conversations I have about loans also
around the origination side. We're talking a

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little bit post origination side today,
which you'll be fascinating. But just before

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I get into that, for a
little context, can you give people a

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little context on the company I cannady
what you guys do, and my standard

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opening question is kind of how we
all made our way into the banking industry,

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because I find it that's an interesting
story. So maybe you can meld

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those two together and tell us a
little bit about you in the company.

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Yeah. Sure. So Canopy is
an API first modern lending core. We

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help lenders be better operators through our
loan management platform and suite of tools,

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and so that's a little bit of
who we are what we do. To

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your point on post origination, that's
really all that we focus on. So

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everything from getting approved to taking a
loan, all the way through charging,

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all for closing an account. It's
about ninety percent of the loans life cycle

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and engagement happens in the world of
servicing, but we don't talk a lot

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about it because it's a little bit
esoteric. It's not that sexy, I

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guess for some although we're doing a
whole podcast on it, so I hope

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there's some people out there that are
interested in it and it. You know,

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servicing powers the lending ecosystem, So
our platform connects into a lot of

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other integrations from payments to issuer processors
to KYC to help operators be better lenders.

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And so when I think about servicing, I'm thinking about any company that

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has to account for its customers making
payments needs to service them door, dash

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services, you Uber services you when
you have a problem with your ride or

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when you're dealing with financial products.
You also need a system of record that

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can handle all the rules and policies
that govern those products, and so servicing

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is a very, very big landscape. As for me, I've been in

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fintech for about ten years. I
was out in the Bay Area working at

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a couple of small payments startups before
moving on to a company called Ernest.

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Ernest competed in the heyday with the
SOFI, really one of the first modern

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neo banks back in twenty fourteen twenty
fifteen after Simple's acquisition, and I got

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to see firsthand everything from originations to
servicing to securitization. My job was to

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help grow originations, so how do
you price, underwrite, acquire students.

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Servicing was how do we account for
these students making repayments? That was quite

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a nightmare and have some PTSD which
helped me found Canopy. And then securitization

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is when we sell the loans into
the capital markets, and so we try

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to build everything in house. I
would say we were big tech, little

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fin You know, if you think
about the two sides of fintech, and

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we didn't need to recreate a lot
of the wheel. We didn't need to

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redo it ourselves, and so we
try to do everything in house. Obviously,

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there weren't companies like Canopy at the
time, so we didn't really have

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another choice. I think it's one
of the reasons we prematurely sold the company

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because of the difficulty in getting data
accuracy and precision to get the loans into

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the capital markets. And as that
acquisition was coming to fruition with a company

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called Naviant, which is the largest
student loan servicer, I was recruited through

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some friends at QEED to a company
called green Sky in Atlanta, and Nigel

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Morris said to me, this is
the most profitable fintech that you've never heard

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of. And he was right because
I hadn't heard of green Sky. I

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hadn't been to Atlanta, but it
was amazing. They were doing about two

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hundred two hundred fifty IBADA when I
joined. I joined to be their head

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of consumer So how do we grow
out there at their consumer arm For those

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who don't know, green Sky was
really one of the og point of sale

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lenders before anyone said by now pay
later, green Sky was the leader in

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that and got to ring the bell
in the NASDAC saw them pre imposed IPO,

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and they had the same struggles with
servicing as Ernest had, just on

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a much bigger scale, which was
that it was very difficult to make small

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line changes within the database because the
database was fifteen years old, extremely rigid,

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And so I started Canopy to be
a more flexible, fungible option for

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banks and fies to launch more innovative
lending products. I love that connection because

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it's it's easy to forget that often
the service capabilities end up dictating the terms

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of loans or the way we you
know, for revolving credit. The wine

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changes increases or decreases end up being
like limited in many ways, like the

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innovation is like we found like people
haven't thought of new kinds of loan products,

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Like oh, I can't do that
because even though I can originate,

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or having no way to collect money
in this or that way, which is

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just a fascinating reality that this kind
of back end seemingly simple process, right

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like how much do you owe?
Do I collect the payment? Every like

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that doesn't seem like that complicated a
part of the business in many ways,

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and yet it ends up limiting the
kinds of loans that are made available and

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where they're made available, and how
because of the difficulty in changing those services.

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Percent agree. I mean, my
slightly spicy hot take is that most

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lending products today are a commodity,
right. I mean, as much as

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we wanted to be doing something different
with Earnest, a three year loan is

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a three year loan. It's the
same that Wells Fargo has, saying the

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Bank of America has now. One
of the things we did see at Earnest

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was a lot of students wanted non
traditional loan terms two point five years,

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three point one years. Those nuances
of personalizing those lending products became very complicated

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on the back end. But if
you put yourself in the shoes of you

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know, a consumer in the middle
of the country, maybe they only have

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one credit union in their town.
It's all they have access to, and

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so if they get denied for three
year loan, they're immediately bumped up to

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the next year, five year,
seven year old. There's no option,

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there's nothing in between. And it's
because that credit union or community bank is

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most likely on Jack Henry and Jack
Henry's had a fixed set of rules for

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fifty years and making any type of
change would literally blow people's minds because you

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don't know what happens downstream. And
so there's the commoditization of lending products.

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That's one thing that we're looking to
change. But then if you put yourself

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in the shoes of the operator,
imagine you're a call center operator. It's

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not typically a career in the US
high churn, so you're manage a call

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center and you're constantly having to retrain
people on systems that were built forty years

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ago. Now at green Sky,
we had something between ten to fifteen thousand

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phone calls a day come into our
call center, and most were basic questions

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what's my payoff amount? How much
do I owe? And the call center

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agent would have to jump through screens
and PDFs. They looked like a Bloomberg

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terminal. They had three different screens
of jumping in between things, and every

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minute they're on the phone, at
every second they're on the phone, it's

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increasing their costs to service exactly.
So we're open to also, on the

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other outside of the personalization piece,
automating a lot of these workflows so that

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simple questions the consumer can just know
instead of having the dollar phone number.

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Let me ask this because I'm kind
of curious. Are there any innovative terms?

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You talked about financial loan products being
kind of commoditized, and I think

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you can argue about like the amount
your proof for in the rate, but

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are you really competing at that cost
level? Because you're right, the product

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itself the core of like get a
thirty six month load or a sixty month

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load. You make monthly payments,
it's simple and whatever. Those things are

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kind of like industry norm And you
mentioned like terms like two and a half

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years or which is kind of like
just the duration of the loan, which

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shockingly can be very hard for surface
handle they need to do. It's say,

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I'm just counted a month instead of
years. It should be easy just

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change number. But are there other
kinds of terms you've seen interesting innovation on?

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For some of your customers were actually
saying, Hey, here's a kind

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of product or something other than just
the duration of let's say an installment loan

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that can be changed in interesting ways
to change the nature of that product in

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some way. Because it's you're right, there's not a lot of innovation on

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that actual like what is the core
offering that's be provided front. Yeah,

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so we a canopy. We support
pretty much every type of unsecured lending products,

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so from revolving cards, charge cards, debit cards, installment loan,

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buy now, pay later, student
loans. And then on the B to

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B side, you have a lot
of working capital products, so merchant cash,

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advance in voice factoring. So I'd
like to tackle the question in two

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sides. So on the B two
C side, there are a lot of

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personalization from our lenders that are looking
to extend grace periods or maybe give a

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revolving line of credit that can retroactively
put a purchase onto an installment plan.

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Amex has this today called pay a
Planet, but it's in their AMX ecosystem.

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We've helped democratize that. So there
are a lot of i'd say beneficial

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viewpoints that our lenders are doing to
create some differentiation within the B two C

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space. In addition to simple things
like changing up interest rates or choosing a

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transaction putting it retroactively on a by
now, pay later product very complicated from

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operational process, we help simplify that. They are also trying to answer questions

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for consumers before they happen. So
as an example, if you were to

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call into any lender today, any
credit card lender, and you said,

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hey, I'm thinking about making this
big purchase, what does that due to

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my interest rate? That lender can't
answer that question because their system doesn't provide

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that level of transparency. And so
that's really what we mean by by better

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operators. We're helping provide more financial
literacy to the end consumer, the end

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barrower on the now Again a kind
of pause there, because I think there's

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a lot of innovation happening on the
B two C side, but generally that

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playbook has been extended. I mean
it's it's been You're not really going to

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out innovate capital one in a credit
card consumer credit card space. They have

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too much, you know, unique
proprietary spending data to do that. On

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the B to B side, I
think that it's really a blue ocean.

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I mean, there is so much
opportunity. KYB, No, your business

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is still new. Obviously you're not
using Piico scores. Cabbage is one of

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the most modern B to B lenders
and they're only ten years old before they

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merge with M So we're seeing a
lot of unique use cases for working capital

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products that companies like flex Sport,
one of our portfolio companies, companies like

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Novo is a small business business lender
out of Miami, another one of our

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portfolio companies are really pushing the boundaries
in this space. And so I'm excited

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to see where the B to B
side of lending goes in the next couple

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of years. Interesting. Yeah,
the B to B space will be fascinating.

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So I want to switch a little
bit to this um to the I

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think the interesting touch points that you
get on the servicing side, because while

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servicing, I think it's thought of
its kind of like rot. It's also

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the like to your point, like
ninety percent of the life cycle of any

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lending product happens post originations, and
so much time and energy is spent thinking

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about how we originate faster and whatever. And yet you know, most financial

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industry companies their business model is built
around cross sell. And so it's interesting

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that that that ninety percent of the
life cycle of the road is and the

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thing that we spend less time talking
about, and yet that's your surface area

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if you're thinking about digital or automated
or self service to actually cross sell and

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help people find new and additional part. So I'm curious how you think about

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that, because it's it is this
kind of really interesting thing that in some

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ways it's naturally you just got to
collect the money, it's an easy part,

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but it is also like that's your
touch point every be on a very

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regular basis with your customer for most
of the time they interact with you.

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This is how they interact with you, and that's your place to talk to

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them about other ways you can work, which is a pretty valuable piece of

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real estate action. Yeah, I
love that you brought that point up.

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I mean, it's really one of
the founding principles of canopy. So my

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thesis is that every fintech, every
FI out there moves from a monoproduct world

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to a multiproduct world. So banks
have been there for a while, which

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extends the LTV of the bar where, but fintech's are still somewhat a one

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trick pony. And I think you
know, they're needing to get beyond just

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basic interchange and they have to get
into lending to continue to sustain and grow

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into their valuations. And so if
you break that down, when I was

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at Earnest, we had multiple products. We had a mortgage product, personal

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loan product, and a student loan
product. We wanted to be the universal

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system that could have better data through
looking at the other side of the balance

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sheet. So we were one of
the first companies to work with Plaid to

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start using that in underwriting and be
able to say, oh, this is

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Jeff, he went to this college, here's his repayment data. He's about

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to reach this other milestone in his
life. We should instantly approve him for

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a mortgage or instantly approve him for
a personal loan. Now, in theory,

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that sounds amazing, but incredibly difficult
to do when each of your products

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are in different servicing stacks. This
is something that's SOFI is going through right

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now. They have multiple products.
They've had that for a long time.

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Each our own different servicing stacks.
And so my brothers a SOFI member,

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and so he's been repaying his student
loan for some period of time. They

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should know him front and back and
understand his risk. But when he goes

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to look at a personal loan,
it's a brand new customer. And so

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having one system that has universal data
is a major advantage point, and that's

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why it was important for us to
be able to support multiple product constructs out

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of the gate. I think that
servicing systems and be interested to hear your

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your take from upstart. Servicing systems
are a major point of engagement. So

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most of the companies we work with, they want to own that relationship.

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They don't want to offshore that to
some random call center the other side of

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the world. They want to be
able to answer and engage with their customers

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so that they're not having to reacquire
them and they can actually cross sell an

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upsell like you said, but all
of that data exists in the servicing layer.

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Yeah, now, I think it's
it's a it's a huge point that

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this is scenereio. It's often underinvested, even I think upstarted, we've historically

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kind of servicing has not been as
front of mind in terms of place pronovation.

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And yet when you get to the
rope cross product and you well,

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how do we like be smarter.
I've told financial institutions for years, like,

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if you want to earn a repeat
business, you got to give people.

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You should be able to give the
best rate and the simplest process to

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your current customers because you know more
about them, You have their servicing history,

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you have all the data they used
to apply the first time, right,

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And yet so often I mean you
your example, I had a mortgage

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with a bank. I said I
had a helock to that, and they

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said sure, and they sent me
like a blank application that started off with

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like where is your house? Come
on, guys, like take advantage of

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what you have to give me something
better, because if you don't, I'll

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go ask five other guys who are
going to give be the same process you

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can And you've lost your advantage and
I why do I Why am I loyal

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to you? You didn't make it
when that helock should have been like a

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do you want fries with that?
Like you get the mortgage? That should

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just be like, hey, we
have a fully under in you. Would

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you like, you know, one
hundred thousand dollars heelock to sit on the

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side of that when you're going and
it should just be a checkbox. And

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my people were right and it said
it's like a five page application, and

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you go, that's that's a totally
missed opportunity, probably because the data was

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just like didn't didn't speak right?
It couldn't they that pretty knows that they

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should do that, but it didn't. Technically, it couldn't do it.

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All system of records are very rigid, very difficult to extract data to manipulate

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it. They're almost always in a
batch process. So everything of Canopy is

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real time. So we're giving our
operators up to date, in real time

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access to repayment data, transaction data. It helps banks and lenders of records

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and capital markets log into Canopy and
see exactly the risk scores that are coming

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on and make better underwriting decisions.
So having access to real time data is

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a major starting point to this,
and I think that that's fintech promise,

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right, fintech promises let's create a
better customer experience. I think that for

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a while, the first wave of
FinTechs were only like a front end marketing

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site, and it's because the technology
underneath of it couldn't actually help create better

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experiences. And so I'm excited for
the next ten years for exactly that,

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which is, let's be able to
utilize data to make instant product offerings,

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reduce friction, and actually create I
mean that that's fintech at its best right,

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facilitating better life experiences. The home
that you live in the car that

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you drive, in the school that
you go to. Let's actually see that

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all the way through by not making
people painfully go back through a manual process.

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One just basic table stakes information that
the bank or the fintech already knows

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about you. Yeah, and you
take it a step further and actually like

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recommend the right product because you know
what's going on in my life, give

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me a better rate because you can
see my repayment history in a way that's

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not directly at the credit file.
Those things are, they're available, they're

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possible. It's it's not really a
technical challenge to do them, but it

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is a technical challenge to get a
legacy system and get the data in the

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right in the right captability to do
that. I'll say, my sofy story

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was even even worse than the one
you told, because I mean they I

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got a mortgage to so high.
It's not the same way. You couldn't

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get the helot but and you know
they'd versus servicing and so all I'd say,

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we know you got a mortgage from
us, and this is how much

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it was, but we have no
idea what the balance is or where it's

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at, or when your next payment
is or what your payments are because click

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here to log into the third party
servicing site and I went, and then

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you're making repayments to a company that
you don't even know. And so you're

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like, uh, is this is
this fraud? Is this a scam?

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I thought? I thought, I'm
a Sofi customer. It's like, no,

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no, you're You're like this other
bank that you've never heard of,

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Rissing Rights and the whatever, and
has a website that looks like Craigslists from

283
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the nineties. And you know,
you go, huh, that's not you

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know, it's fine because I got
a good rate, but apparently all I

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got was the rate and I didn't
get a better experience. And that's that's

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I was early so Fi customers.
I don't want to like put sofa and

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a bucket today and what that experience
is, but I do think it speaks

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to what the experiences that are often
offered today are and what the opportunity is.

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Because I was, you're ready to
have an integrated experience, the opportunity

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to see all my products make a
combined payment. You know, can I

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take understand what my total monthly obligations
are to the financialst tisue guy, I

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can ye payment dates or split them
up, understand how those things interact.

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It's it's a really fascinating area and
it is a you know, I think

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it's ripe for really delivering on the
promise of you know, better technology and

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financials. Whether it's a ford looking
financial institution or a you know, a

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new startup fintech company. Um,
there's still a lot of promise left to

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deliver on. Well. I think
that the this is where embedded lending gets

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me really excited, because if you
have companies that aren't necessarily traditional lenders.

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Obviously, a company like Walmart who
bought one finance, or company like John

300
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Deer does lending nothing runs like a
Deer. They lend and rent off of

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their tractors and mowers. Even Peloton's
effectively a lender, they just use a

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firm to do it. And so
companies can bring this service in house.

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They're already best in class operators and
put their customer first, and if they

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layer in financial services as well,
that just adds to such a more holistic

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experience with the brand. And so
I think that companies that are already doing

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lending that have a bunch of fragmentation. Certainly it's hard to piece all of

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that together. But you have this
new green field opportunity of new fintech's new

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fis or great brands I want to
bring in financial services in house, and

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they can have a fresh clean plate
to start off with a company like Canopy

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that can help them launch multiple products
simultaneously that are complementary to what their core

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service already is. I'm curious how
you think about that, because it's a

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really fascinating this kind of embedded finance. And let's just take the Peloton example,

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because in many ways, I think
people feel like they got a Peloton

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loan. That's what it's for right
as my field, but it's really through

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a firm. And how do you
see that playing out? Like I don't

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know the Peloton really wants to be
the lender, like from a balance sheet

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point of view, in a risk
management point of view, and I don't

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know if a firm cares about owning
that customer. How do you see that

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playing out between the brands and do
they really become lenders in some real way?

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Do they really partner with forward thinking
banks and flies? And how do

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those fis think about the kind of
customer value they get out of a Peloton

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customer, who's they think of themselves
as in a firm customer too, as

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a firm getting a great chance to
cross sellers at all. Kind of all

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that brand equity accruing to Peloton,
it's to be a fascinating time to see

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how that plays out between these large
brands that consumers are going to and the

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partners they're working with on the financing
side. It's all I think, it's

327
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just fascinating curious how you see that
kind of playing out where what's your advice

328
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is to fight fintech or a bank
is looking at basically how do I where

329
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do I fitted as ecosystem and how
do I think about what that opportunity looks

330
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like for me? Well, I
think that there's certainly a rebundling services at

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brands and in a raising interest rate
environment like today, giving up seven to

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ten percent take rate for your partner, who's actually the BMPL is lost economic

333
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value you for you as as the
brand, and so um there's the financial

334
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side of this, so like what
makes sense for us to bring in house?

335
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And then I think there's also looking
at your core competencies of what do

336
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you do really well. I mean, are you already servicing your customers?

337
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I mean are you the one picking
up the phone? Are you the one

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um sending out mail? Are you
the one that is recommending in Peloton's class

339
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the case different classes to take,
and so you can there's so much there's

340
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so many great infrastructure companies today.
I mean Canopy plays a part of this,

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but companies like alloy On on the
KYC side, um, you know,

342
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companies like Dwala or checkout dot Com
on the payment processing side. UM.

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So I think you can really pick
and choose a la carte best in

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class infrastructure services fundle these items together
and this helps accelerate your ability to launch

345
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lending products in house. Now again, when you look at your core competencies,

346
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and this is often conversation that I
have not just with brands, but

347
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banks and FinTechs as well, creating
a servicing layer and managing all the rules

348
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:12.960
and calculations yourself is a very high
bar with not a lot of differentiation for

349
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.759
you. And so we can Kindopy
can come in and accelerate a lot of

350
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this because you should focus on what
you do best. And so I think

351
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that's like the first principle's question is
what does the brand do best, how

352
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can they extend that related to financial
services, and then can they pick and

353
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choose a few vendors that allow them
to bring it in house, which again

354
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is a win win win. The
customer doesn't feel like they're getting passed around

355
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to two different providers, and the
brand captures more economic value than losing.

356
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.519
I mean, Peloton basically gives up
ten percent of every sale to a firm

357
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at least, and so to me, that's where it's like, it's a

358
00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:55.440
no brainer to bring it in house. Yeah, it feels unsustainable over time,

359
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:57.759
like there's no I don't take a
bite back at ten percent. I'll

360
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.960
like bringing my business at a ten
percent discount, Yes, exactly, my

361
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exacting work. Well, that kind
of interesting. It's fascinating. Face.

362
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:12.799
Do you see anything. I mean, I wonder if there's anything we learned

363
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:18.119
from the auto space where the I
mean the manufacturers went into actually game banks

364
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many instances just to be able to
offer that. And I you know,

365
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.599
when I look at those those companies
now, they are trying to bring the

366
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.440
user experiences together right to say,
hey, we want a holistic picture of

367
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.960
the customer who bought a car from
us and an ongoing relationship with that customer

368
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.799
that something other than the unfortunate thing
for a car is like typically your ongoing

369
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.640
relationships. Only when things break,
it's like I bring it back to the

370
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dealer for servicing, which is like
in this case not making payments. It's

371
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.279
like what it is making payments,
but because something on my car isn't working

372
00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:48.519
the way I wanted it to,
or I need some help something you know

373
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needs fixing, um and so.
But they love having the ongoing relationship from

374
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a financial point of view and kind
of the ability to combine the economics of

375
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.200
the lending. And I wonder if
that's a model will see maybe other big

376
00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:06.119
brands March swords where the actually have
their own kind of the original libetted finance,

377
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.720
if you will it a very very
serious way, like they really own

378
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:14.440
banks. I mean, I think
that that is a really interesting take.

379
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.759
Um and I think there is some
comparisons there. For sure. I don't

380
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:26.599
know that a fintech or a brand
needs to be the license lender of record

381
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.480
per se. I mean I think
that that's still where you know, we've

382
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:36.599
seen the chartered fintech story kind of
play out. It's a very very high

383
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:42.680
bar creates a massive amount of risk
and compliance for the fintech. So I

384
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.880
don't know that that necessarily will happen, but I do to your point of

385
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.960
kind of combining the experience, I
think matters a lot. I also think

386
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:56.039
the product type matters. So in
auto for me, like I set up

387
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:02.720
autopay and I never think about who
on paying. But there are other you

388
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.759
know, like card based products for
an example, have a much higher contact

389
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:11.680
ratio, much higher touch point.
You know, if your card is declined

390
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.559
when you're waiting in line at home
depot, you're you're getting on the phone,

391
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.440
and so I mean, if you
are calling in with an issue,

392
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.480
do you really want to pass that
down the chain three different times and then

393
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.839
you finally get someone who is reading
from a script and doesn't really care about

394
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.519
you at all. I mean,
it's a horrible experience. So I think

395
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.279
being a first party servicer, if
that is court, if operational excellence and

396
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.839
execution is part of your brand,
DNA and how you run your business,

397
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.319
then this is just a slight extension
from offer financial services. I think it

398
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:52.079
makes a ton of sense. Yeah, and it really is that. I

399
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:53.960
think You're right that the two things
I take away from the conversation of the

400
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.759
ability to really innovate on what you
can offer in the ability to really optimize

401
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.079
the customer experience, whether that you
know, for any kind of touch point.

402
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.839
But it's it's amazingly true how difficult
it is to have even most banks.

403
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.920
If you dial to go what four
loans do I have outstanding? And

404
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.640
what are my next payments? Like, you may end up in four very

405
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.839
different UXes because those are four different
systems. My credit card balances over here,

406
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:22.279
my auto loan balance is over here, my mortgage balance is over there,

407
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:29.279
and bringing those together is so powerful
in the world where you know customers

408
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.559
are looking for that integrated, simple
experience and it's you have the right data

409
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.359
layer. I feel like you just
gave me a layup. So I gotta

410
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.880
I gotta talk through this example because
that is exactly what we believe in.

411
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.880
And in the B to B space, it is so painful because you're running

412
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.359
a small business and you call up
a bank and you're typically getting multiple lines

413
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.480
of credit, so you have one
to pay your inventory, maybe one to

414
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:56.000
pay your payroll, and one to
pay your rent. So now you have

415
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.480
three different loans, three different account
numbers, three different en pays, and

416
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.200
you're trying to run your dry cleaners
or your clothing store, and so you

417
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.759
call into the bank and say,
hey, I'm trying to find what's my

418
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:10.799
minimum due and the bank says for
which account number? Sir, well,

419
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.559
I don't know about you, but
I don't don't just have my account numbers

420
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:15.079
just off the top of my head. So now I'm fumbling through to find

421
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.119
the account number. We're going back
and forth, and before you know it,

422
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:22.799
I missed a payment because I thought
it was the other you know,

423
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.039
the working capital product, but it
was actually for the rent. And so

424
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.480
Canopy helps consolidate a lot of that
into a single men pay, single payment,

425
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.640
single due date, single statement,
so that both the bar were in

426
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.440
the operator don't have to handle all
of that complexity on the B two C

427
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:44.279
side, So not so much as
having multiple accounts or loans. But for

428
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:48.720
me personally, I have a Capital
one credit card and I called it to

429
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.640
Capital one about a year ago and
said I'd like to know my payoff amount.

430
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.480
They gave me a number, and
two months go by and Credit Carma

431
00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.279
dings my credit score and I call
up hapit of one furious I thought I

432
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.640
paid off my account and they said, well, sir, actually it was

433
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.880
mid cycle and you had some residual
interest rate and then you got a late

434
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.400
fee in a late fee and I
was pulling out my hair. Jeff,

435
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:15.960
I said, please just tell me
how much do I owe today right now

436
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:21.240
on May twenty second, you know, whenever it is, and they couldn't

437
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:26.720
tell me that information. And so
being able to just give transparent, real

438
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:32.480
time information that seems like table stakes
is challenging for some of the largest issuers

439
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.519
in the world. So there's a
how do we make it a simpler,

440
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:40.559
better user experience to consolidate all these
loans and accounts under one statement one midday.

441
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.799
And then there's also the how can
I just give people access to information

442
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.640
when it happens to be mid cycle? Yeah, let me ask you one

443
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.400
more question before we brought this thing
up, because I'm really interested it.

444
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.920
I don't know how much you guys
work with work traditional fis with established products

445
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.039
and history and migration of data in
how you know startups who are kind of

446
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.559
building from scratch, going hey,
this is great. I get a like,

447
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.880
what is your advice to a financial
institution and maybe has some history,

448
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.240
goes we need to move to an
API oriented, real time better system of

449
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.359
record. But like we got a
lot of data, we got a lot

450
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.720
of people in flight, lots of
loans outstanding. That that kind of movement

451
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:19.440
from A to B, it's easy
to go. Yes, this would be

452
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:22.920
a better world. We're hard to
be living in it. But I've got

453
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.400
to, like I gotta move my
house with all my stuff, um and

454
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.680
get from A to B. Are
there any best practices or things you've seen

455
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.480
for companies? You know, institution
isn't a little older that say I've got

456
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.319
I've got some history here. How
do I how do I make that transition

457
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.279
to a better world without without breaking
the bank and breaking the institution. That

458
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.680
feels like a really hard challenge.
It's very different than Hey, I'm starting

459
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.279
a fintech company. I want to
have like a better servicing experience and you

460
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.319
know, um primary record system like
I can start for scratch. So what's

461
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.039
your what's your advice or history with
that and what would you teal in stitutions

462
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:57.440
are coming? How do I how
do I start the process of getting a

463
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:04.680
better place. So Cannoby works with
several top twenty five issuers on this exact

464
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.680
problem. And so it's a combination
of technology and people. So it takes

465
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:15.319
some of our solution architecture team to
actually help. So it's not just automated,

466
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:21.960
because every bank might have multiple databases
that have different naming conventions and so

467
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.279
we need to normalize all of that
and so it is a process of figuring

468
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:31.759
that out and we help White Glove
handhold these banks through this. It is

469
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.319
also based on the technology, So
our technology from retroactive events can pick and

470
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.119
choose a time in the past,
but you know it could be created three

471
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.319
years ago, the account could be
created three years ago, but make it

472
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.920
effective today. And so we have
a migration mode in our API that rolls

473
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.240
time forwards and backwards. Time is
the thing that is really a sticking point

474
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:01.440
with this to make the data migration
piece easier after the naming conventions are agreed

475
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:07.720
upon through our solution development team.
So that's just a little bit of like

476
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.319
insider baseball, how the process goes
down. I would say, if I

477
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:15.680
was giving advice to a bank,
don't go through a digital transformation effort.

478
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:21.960
That's I hear that word often and
that typically is a five ten year journey,

479
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.799
and so you have to start somewhere, you start small, and so

480
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:30.000
sometimes Canopy can be a shadow ledger
and system of record against one of the

481
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:34.599
existing cores and make sure that all
the test cases and rules and policies are

482
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:39.519
set up, and we pick and
choose typically a division within the bank and

483
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:43.480
say, by working with Canopy,
we're going to show you how we can

484
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:45.599
help you acquire more merchants. We're
going to show you how we can help

485
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:51.200
increase your repayment rate. We're going
to show you how we can decrease your

486
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.279
costs of service through different automations.
And we typically run a pilot program side

487
00:33:54.279 --> 00:34:01.119
by side so it doesn't feel as
overwhelming as migrating fifty million cardholders over to

488
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:06.680
our system. So it's a little
bit of land and expand along with a

489
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:10.199
combination of technology and people from Canopy
that really make it less painful. I

490
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.599
mean, that's my view of the
world in general, is that if you're

491
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:15.639
selling into B to B like we
are, like we have to take on

492
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:20.360
that pain so that our customers don't
have to feel anxious about it, and

493
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.039
so that that's how we approach it. Yeah, I love the land and

494
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.559
expand maybe as a sales side version
of that, but they kind of like

495
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:30.159
start with the test case, prove
the technology, work it out, maybe

496
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.519
run it the shadow background us.
I think sometimes it can look it can

497
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.760
be almost impossible to imagine the whole
thing. But I've always found these kind

498
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.639
of transitions work best when you can
launch something, show value, show success.

499
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:44.639
They go, you know, versus
training, get everybody on board and

500
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:46.639
go hey, let's all do the
thing. Go ah, let's get one

501
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:51.199
guy who loves it. Let's get
one groups that's using it and says sees

502
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:53.119
the value. And then you go, hey, we've already on forty percent

503
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:57.760
of the work for you because it's
just set up or through vendor in diligence

504
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:00.239
all I selest one, and now
we start expanding the value over time.

505
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.599
It's always easier, I think,
to do that when you're when you're seeing

506
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.679
value eternally as an organization, to
say hey, let's let's invest more in

507
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.360
this technology, this partnership. Whatever. They to start would like, oh

508
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:14.559
my god, we've got this huge
thing we have to do. And the

509
00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.320
stakeholder. We have a lot of
stakeholders, right, so when we sell

510
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.440
into a bank or a large established
lender, there might be five or six

511
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:27.719
different individuals that all have different value
propositions in their head. The head of

512
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.920
operations, the GM of lending,
the CTO, the CFO, they all

513
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:37.480
have different objectives that they're trying to
solve for in their orgs, and so

514
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.119
we need to be flexible of understanding
their pain points and really talk through how

515
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.239
a modern lending core like kind of
can can really help accelerate them. But

516
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:50.400
this is not for the faint of
heart. It's not you know, bottoms

517
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.719
up self serve. These are complex
sales, complex deals. I mean,

518
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.639
these are systems that touch a lot
of other systems, and so we spend

519
00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:00.800
also a significant amount of time working
through inner grations. So making it really

520
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:06.519
easy to add on your CRM of
choice. We integrate with zendesk, HubSpot

521
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.960
and Salesforce, or you can use
Canopy integrate your payment processor of choice.

522
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.440
We work with Stripe, Dwala,
Repay, dot Com, authorized dot net.

523
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.679
So really pick and choose and make
those integrations easier. Because every lender

524
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.400
has a different suite of services and
tools that they use internally, and so

525
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:29.440
we're not going to force you into
just one platform. We're going to be

526
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.360
the core for you, and then
we're going to help you navigate all of

527
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:37.960
the other products and third parties you
need to continue to run your lending program.

528
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:44.440
Yeah, one maybe piece of advice
I would give to the fis listening

529
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.760
to this with the fintex is like
the fact that it's hard to me makes

530
00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:50.840
it a competitive advantage if you can
do it well, because many people look

531
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:52.639
at the hard thing and go,
it's too hard, we can't get it

532
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:58.000
dot and if you can not trivial, but it puts you in a position

533
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.480
to actually deliver those customer experiences that
differentiates you in the market. And so

534
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.639
I remember when we were starting up
start, my CEO used to look at

535
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:07.559
me and say, how hard your
sales or whatever? How hard isn't this?

536
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:13.119
That's good because that just means it's
gonna be that much harder for somebody

537
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:16.000
to come on. That's a that's
a competitive advantage that you're building through doing

538
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.920
that hard work. That will take
anybody else who wants to copy it like

539
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:22.599
just as much time and hard work, and they're starting out behind you,

540
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:27.840
chasing you. I think that's a
tremendous advantage for the institutions you can figure

541
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:30.239
out how to get it done and
how to get it moving, so well

542
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.119
worth the effort in the end,
I agree. I mean I think it's

543
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:37.079
also why as a starting point so
many FinTechs went to debit. I mean

544
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.639
part of it was marketa galleolithic made
it easier, so it became a little

545
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:46.679
bit of a self self fulfilling prophecy. We definitely hope to make offering lending

546
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:52.519
products simpler as as well and getting
to market faster. But um, you

547
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:54.519
know, as you look to move
beyond just debit and you look to move

548
00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:59.760
into something that is not just an
interchange base, I think it's really important

549
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:04.280
to think about the compliance and safety
piece to it. So obviously our system

550
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:08.480
out of the box is compliant.
We help navigate the different geos and laws

551
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:13.199
that are part of it. It's
thinking about the n barrow or experience.

552
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.920
How do you replicate Jeff's account in
month six? Because it's the edge cases

553
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:21.119
that make this really hard. So
we have a lot of tooling. We

554
00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:27.440
have a product called loan Lab that
enables our customers to simulate things that have

555
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.679
not happened yet, so we can
show you that they are always true and

556
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.400
show you what this would do to
your portfolio if your delinquency rate went up

557
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:42.119
to x as an example, So
simulation of time being compliant and really helping

558
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:46.639
to navigate all of the different pieces
you need to offer a lending program is

559
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.639
you know what we love But to
your point, it's not like something you

560
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:55.239
can just turn a switch overnight.
Lending is hard. Doing it well at

561
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:59.960
scale is very challenging, which is
why I mean a lot of the band

562
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:07.000
and initsuers continue to maintain the majority
of the engagement and assets because of the

563
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:12.920
integrations and being entrenched in a lot
of these processes. Now, on the

564
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:16.239
counterpoint to that, I think a
lot of the issuers are thinking about getting

565
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.280
disintermediated by up and coming FinTechs,
you know, companies like after pay,

566
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:27.599
Klarna a firm and so how do
you merge the knowledge and operational excellence of

567
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.760
of being a great lender with the
technology that can allow you to offer more

568
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:37.280
unique and innovative products is really the
intersection that Canopy sits in excellent Well,

569
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.920
mas A been a great conversation.
I really I love that we got to

570
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:45.320
dive into the ninety percent part of
sendation, not just the ten that we

571
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.679
must talk focusing on I got three
questions I ask everybody at the end of

572
00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:52.760
the podcast. So if you're ready, here we go. Let's do it

573
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.119
rapid fire. Number one, what's
the best piece of career advice you've ever

574
00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:01.199
gotten? Best piece of career advice? Um, your care is not linear.

575
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:05.360
There's ups and downs to it,
and so there's peaks and valleys,

576
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.679
but it's how the trend line goes. And so that means that for me

577
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:15.320
as an example, all the rejections
like don't take it personally, understand where

578
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:19.280
you're going, take it with a
grain assault the work to get better and

579
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.760
persevere, and so I think grit, grit in your career and knowing that

580
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.880
it's not easy, it's not given
to you is some of the best advice

581
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.360
that I've gotten, something that I
try to abide by and tell my kids

582
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.199
as well. I'm in my son's
room because of the audio qualities the best

583
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:37.440
here. So um, so yeah, it's a it's a career, it's

584
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:42.920
a career advice and a little parental
advice as well. Anything that can double

585
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.119
his career in parental advice is good
advice in my book. That's that's a

586
00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:49.880
double win. Um. Second question, what's the best advice who were gotten

587
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:54.679
about the general consumer financial space or
consumer lending space in general, that as

588
00:40:54.760 --> 00:41:00.679
much as people try to out innovate
fico, Fico's pretty innovative, but boiling

589
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.639
things down to a single number is
innovative. It's not great, um,

590
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.039
but you know it's thirty days lagging, but fair Isaac did it did it

591
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:12.480
right when he boiled it down to
to a single number. And so UM,

592
00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:15.159
I think there's a lot of people
that try to create you know,

593
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:21.440
alternative data structures and um, you
know, not use fico at all and

594
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:25.079
collecting more information we you sa always
joke is uh is reverse innovation? So

595
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:31.119
uh that that would be my my
hot take on the consumer side. That

596
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:34.840
is a hot take, especially talking
to a guy who works a company that

597
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:38.840
used to alternative data. Under right, everybody, we bring you on to

598
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:43.599
hear the guests opinion, so we'll
find a different time to have a debate.

599
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:47.199
Bought. Um Okay. My third
question is what's one bull prediction for

600
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:52.559
the future. I think that AI
is going to continue to advance in financial

601
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:58.880
services. Um. You know,
obviously how that takes shape and form is

602
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:04.119
going to be interesting as if AI
is ninety nine point nine percent correct but

603
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.559
off on that point one percent of
the time, it's not good enough financial

604
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:09.559
services, you have to be one
hundred percent correct all the time. The

605
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.880
precision and accuracy makes it really really
challenging. But can it be. We've

606
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:21.079
been using machine learning and automation to
make better workflows and predictions to our borrowers

607
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.119
already, so I think that that
trend's going to continue to accelerate. And

608
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:25.840
then, as I mentioned, I'm
really excited for the future of of B

609
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:30.800
to B lending. Oh let me
let me ask this. Have you guys

610
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:34.840
seen anything on the gen AI because
the general AI is interesting because you can

611
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.519
use it. I mean, my
kids use CHATP two. The actually ask

612
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.039
the questions and won't want the answer
to be good, which is maybe not

613
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:43.119
the thing it was built to do. Right is more of a writer,

614
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:46.679
but if you think of it as
a natural language interface, it can understand

615
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:52.400
what you're asking and then query and
underlying system so the answer is accurate.

616
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.679
It becomes really interesting right as a
way to replace an agent and let's say

617
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:59.239
a chat where it has access to
a canopy to say, hey, what's

618
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:00.800
my balaty goes I know what you
want, and I know how to I

619
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.480
know how to get it, and
I can now have like a more natural

620
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.400
conversation with a Yeah, are you
guys looking at things in that space,

621
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.280
because I think there's a there's a
AI as the back office, your point

622
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.920
machine learning that's actually I think here
much more than people appreciate already being done.

623
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.639
And then there's the jed AI has
been more of the front end the

624
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.800
user experience shifting to this kind of
more human like interaction that's not actually a

625
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.639
human. I'm curious if that's It
seems like something that may be coming sooner

626
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.960
rather than later, to a servicing
experiences where you could have a conversation that's

627
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:34.320
not powered by at least initially a
human BEPI, an AI that's connected to

628
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:36.840
internal systems, and I'm curious that
that's something you guys are playing with or

629
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:39.079
looking at or have any thoughts on
that. Yeah, this is a similar

630
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:49.519
question too, I received at fintech
Nexus a couple weeks ago, and the

631
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:53.039
polling suggested half of people said they
want it to be a chat bot and

632
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:57.440
not talk to humans, and then
the reverse was true to the other half

633
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.559
of people said they want to talk
to to a human. So I think

634
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.280
I think it's UM, it's complicated, it's nuanced. I think for really

635
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.039
basic things, you know, sending
a text message to know what my balance

636
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:10.239
is, to be able to make
a payment, anything that reduces friction there

637
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:15.719
I think is really really helpful,
and obviously AI can can play a major

638
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:20.320
role in that. I also think
in terms of the relationship, sometimes you

639
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:25.159
want to be able to talk to
somebody and actually ask UM the person a

640
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:30.320
question that doesn't feel so distant and
cold, and so I think the use

641
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:35.719
case matters a lot. But I
think all of us could could say that

642
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.280
we're not in love with any IVR
systems and any phone systems, and so

643
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:45.159
if this helps to make that just
a little bit better than m that's a

644
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:47.920
win win for for for everyone.
So we are looking at at some of

645
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.719
it UM, but the the use
cases are are nuance based on the product

646
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:53.880
type and what people are doing.
So I think it's still going to be

647
00:44:53.920 --> 00:45:01.559
a combo of data automation, AI
plus human agent interaction for some time now.

648
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:05.440
Excellent, Matt, I appreciate the
time based is a great conversation.

649
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:09.239
Thanks for joining us. Thanks Jeff
Talks to chairs. Upstart partners with banks

650
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That's upstart dot com slash foward dash
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664
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