Synchronizing Values and Operations for an Aligned Brand

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You're listening to Leaders and Lending from
Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer

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lenders grow their programs and improve their
product offerings. Each week, here decision

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makers in the finance industry offer insights
into the future of the lending industry,

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best practices around digital transformation, and
more. Let's get into the show.

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Welcome to Leaders in Lending. I'm
your host, Jeff Keltner. This week's

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episode features my conversation with Grace Bruins, the a VP of marketing at a

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Horricon Bank. We talk about Grace's
experience with multiple brand refreshes, actually thinks

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about the process identifying the true core
values that resonate with your customers. Is

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how your institution really operates, what
really makes you unique, how that gets

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represented through the process of a brand
refresh. I really enjoyed the part of

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our conversation where we talked about fostering
collaborative relationships cross functional in the order.

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I think that's fantastic advice and experience
for anyone. I talk about. Grace

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always delves into one of our passions, which is internal communications. How you

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get messages conveyed internally, where to
do that and how to kind of think

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about effective internal communications with your employees. And then we talked at the end

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about the podcast you started. We
share a few moments about being both unexpected

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podcast hosts, so I thought that
was another fun part of the conversation for

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me. I'm sure you will learn
as much from this conversation as I did.

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Please enjoy my conversation with Grace Bruns. Grace, welcome to the podcast,

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and thanks for making the time to
join us today. Thanks for having

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me. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm looking forward this. I like

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to start all of my podcasts with
kind of same basic question, which is

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how did you wind up here?
I doubt it was what you were dreaming

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of when you were you know,
my teenage Sun's age fourteen, being in

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the banking industry. What's the path
that brought you here? Oh, it's

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not all that exciting, Unfortunately,
it was a series of I need a

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job. It's twenty ten and we're
going out of our session. Might parents

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are like, you can't live at
home, so figure it out? But

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necessity, But I yeah, absolutely. I graduated college and I was actually

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out in Washington, DC for about
a year and doing some different internships.

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A lot of learning and actually was
offered a job out there, but it

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just didn't quite seem right, you
know, something wasn't sitting well with me.

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So I moved home, and like
I said, my parents were like,

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all right, you got a little
time, but let's figure this out.

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And I you know, I'm rural
Wisconsin, so communities are very close.

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And I remember thinking banks are a
lot of times at the center of

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the community and a lot of times
the center of the business community. So

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if banking isn't what I want to
be in, if finance isn't when I

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want to be in, it's a
great spot to start to get to know

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your community and get to know local
business. So I applied at Horrorcon Bank.

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Actually interviewed with someone who married my
babysitter from when I was growing up,

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so that was pretty funny. She's
like, wow, you're here an

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adult like you? Sure I am. It does happen. All the kids

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eventually do become adulting difficult for some
of us to accept. So so yeah,

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I ended up working on the front
line for maybe about nine months before

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an opening came in the marketing department
and was really enjoying Horcon Bank and the

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culture and everything I was learning,
So I was like, if you know,

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marketing was my background, so off
marketing at Horricon Bank wasn't quite quite

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what I wanted it to be.
It was just a great learning ground and

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a great place to be while I
learned, And then turns out it was

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really what I enjoyed. And I've
been there for twelve years now. Twelve

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years all right. I don't think
I've ever stayed any company for twelve years

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success. It's just the reality of
my I'm not the one year now,

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but I've typically been three to five
and then yeah, and then find the

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new spot. I wanted to start
by asking when we when we chatted earlier,

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you have mentioned that you have in
the twelve years been through three or

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four brand refreshes, which is I
think such an interesting experience. Some banks

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have never I think some people have
never been through one, and you've been

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through several. So I wanted to
start with kind of diving into that a

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little bit, just like, what
do you think drives the desire the timing

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is saying, hey, now's the
time to refresh. Then how do you

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think about tackling that process? Because
it can be everything from like a I've

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hear brand refreshes most like, oh, we hired an agency and we've got

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a logo and then we're gonna change
the college team and we're but everything else

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is the same, And sometimes it's
a more complete overhaul of a lot of

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things, down to business processes and
employee manuals and how you think about what

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you're trying to do. And so
I'm just curious, like, how you

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how you've seen it work out like
winds, How do you know it's time

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and how do you think about sizing
what it is you're trying to do?

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Well before my time, so previous
to my twelve years, they went through

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a really big brand overhaul where they
actually changed the name from Horrorcon State Bank

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to Horrorcon Bank, So there was
a little bit of a change there,

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and that they really redid the logo, redid all of the branding even inside

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the branches. So since that time, we've built off of that kind of

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foundation of who Horrcon Bank is.
These sort of cooler colored tones because it

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used to be orange and black and
now we're blues and greens, and yeah,

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that's bold. That's a big change
in right. So so then when

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I came into the department shortly after. We What really started it was we

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were looking at our website and it
looked like every other bank's website. The

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functionality was awful. Making changes to
it would take two to three hours minimum

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to get them to go live on
the site, which is not good.

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And this was ten years ago,
but still you needed to have better otionality,

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needed it to be quicker. So
we started looking into different website providers

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and with that came the opportunity to
completely rebrand the website. Well, once

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you start there, you start to
rebrand everything. Model project right, you

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start a little bit and there's always
like, wow, as long as we're

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doing that, we might as well
why not, Like I like those graphics

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that would look great over here,
Let's let's incorporate them everywhere. So that

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was really where that brand refresh started. And then a few years later,

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actually we were going to go through
another website upgrade. So the technology that

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our website had originally been built on
was starting to become outdated, so we

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needed to move. We're like,
again, this is just a great time

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to refresh the look of it.
So then taking a look at all of

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our current materials, anything that we
had out there. We were like,

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is this still the style we want
to stay with or do we want to

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kind of overhaul it, And we
did overhaul it. At that time,

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we had some newer employees, a
VP of Innovation that was a part of

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it, and he brought in a
lot of experience from different areas of the

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country and also had started his own
fintech, so just a different marketing experience

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there. And so we changed and
we really made the brand. I think

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the brand look was definitely more on
that like sort of tech side, very

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very savvy, very cool, which
was which was great, but after a

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while it started to again it just
didn't quite feel like who we wanted to

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be. We wanted to show people
that we have the tech savvy of a

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bigger bank, but we still have
this community bank, hometown bank feel right

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that that relationships are at the core
of what we do. That doesn't mean

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we can't offer you great services that
are provided by great tech, but in

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the end, it's the banker that
you have a relationship with, not your

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computer. So again, I think
through all of that, we partnered with

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an agency who came out visited all
of our branches, really got to know

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us asked some really great, great
questions about our brand and who we are

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and how our bankers feel about our
brand and how they live out that brand,

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and then we completely overhauled again,
which this one I'm hoping sticks around

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a little bit longer because that's a
really big process. It is a big

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process I want to dive into.
I think two things about that latest refresh

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that seemed really interesting to me.
One of you said it was driven by

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in part by a chief innovation officer
who is pushing things. That's it's an

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interesting place. I often find that
brand can be down on the list for

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people like that. That like almost
I think some senior executives and tend to

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think of the brand is like the
paint of the code of paint you put

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on at the end. It's kind
of like not that relevant. So talk

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to me about how that individual was
engaged and how that changed, how they

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pushed your thinking and what you were
trying to do or how you were looking

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at what you were Yeah. So
he and I worked pretty cool stay together,

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even though he was on the digital
banking innovation side and I was on

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marketing. But one of the things
that we really came together on was the

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website, and I was like,
I don't like the way it functions.

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I don't like that any time a
lender can't find a link, I have

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to put it on the homepage because
they don't want to search for it.

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Like there needs to be and my
marketers know what I'm talking about. There

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needs to be a better purpose for
this website. You know, is it

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lead driven? What is it that
we're trying to do? And we have

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to clean up this navigation. So
he was great about just being very collaborative

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about what does that look like and
how do we make sure that we are

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truly fulfilling the purpose of leagen with
our website, and how do we make

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sure that the navigation stays where it
is? And we kind of told the

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line of guess what, You're not
going to find that link there, but

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I'll put it somewhere else where you
can get to it really easily. I'll

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often it said that you cannot you
can tell an organization's priorities by what makes

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it onto the homepage, like that
the homepage now is like an indication almost

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of your of your actual priorities and
how the organization like who actually has influenced

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what actually matters at the end of
the day. Now what we like to

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say uh in calls whatever, like, at the end of the day,

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what makes it onto the page is
sometimes an indication of what we actually value.

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Yep. Yeah, So he was
a big driver of it, and

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he especially with that original like just
redoing that navigation of the website, and

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I think his experience in fintech and
having built his own fintech and kind of

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having to build that brand too along
with it. We just really connected on

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that and so I appreciated the experience
that he was bringing in. I could,

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you know, take the other side
of like, okay, but this

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is this is still who we are, and we can't we don't want to

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go too far outside of that.
Like I understand exploring a piece of our

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brand, but once you start to
make it look and not like us at

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all, that's that's not going to
work either. So it was a great

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partnership between me. I think,
I think let me let me ask you

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about that statement. It's a really
interesting statement. There's this vision of brand

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that's like you paint what you want
to be and then you become like it's

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like it's like a carte blanche to
remake whatever you want the organization to look

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like when you rebrand, and then
there's the kind of reality like a new

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brand doesn't change the way we operate, the way we've admits and operating rhythm.

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That's internal values and things that are
built up over years. And I

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find the most successful branding exercises don't
really try and change who you are.

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They try and accentuate the parts that
you like and focus on what's really true

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about the organization today. And I'm
curious how you approached doing that because it's

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so easy to go, oh,
well, we should value our customers first,

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and what you make the three corporate
statements that anybody could have, and

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you go, that's our brand principles. It's not doesn't, doesn't, it's

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not us. It's just what we
what we think we should say, or

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what we want to be, but
maybe not how we operate. So how

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did you think about bringing who you
really are through in that? It can

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feel so inauthentic if you're not able
to do that effectively. Yeah, absolutely,

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I think people can tell right away, you know, this isn't you,

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This isn't this isn't who I get
when I walk through the door.

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Just because you show it on your
website. For us, it was it

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was taking kind of this deeper dive
into what makes us tick, what makes

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us special. And I think a
lot of times as bankers in the community

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bank space, we rely on will
we're a community bank. That's why people

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that's why people like us, we're
community bank. But I think we had

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we had to take a more adjective
look and say, okay, but customers

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don't say that. They're not like, yeah, I love my community bank

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like they don't. They don't talk
like that. They talk about the people.

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They talk about, you know,
the service that they're receiving and this

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challenge in their life that filled my
lender over here in Waucon was able to

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help me with. And that's what
we had to start exploring. So one

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of the cool things we did what
this last refresh was we put people from

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all over the bank in a room. It's about twelve maybe fifteen of us

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there, and it was all different
product lines, right, So we had

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retail, we had business, we
had back office, we had frontline,

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and a lot of leadership and we
were asking them questions about you know,

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I remember one of them distinctly was
if you have an awesome day at horric

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On Bank. You go home and
you turn to your significant other and you

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say, I had an awesome day, and they say, well, why,

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How do you answer that question?
What makes a great day at Horrorcon

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Bank for the employee? And I
think that's a lot more telling than what

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makes you special? You know what
I mean? You start to describe the

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institution versus me and myself, which
is really a part, an extension of

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that brand, that institution. That's
a fascinating question. I'm curious to go

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to do that exercise with a bunch
of employees, but that sounds it sounds

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really imagine you get some great insight. My other question, how do you

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think about is you? Is you
come up with those values or those things

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from those experiences. It feels like
there's also this level of the institutionalizing,

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that kind of trying to spread what
we're trying to highlight through not just brand

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features and logos and text on a
website and an iconography and a feel,

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but also like how we actually train
employees, what our manuals say, what

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our scripts look like, like,
how we feel like we're actually teaching people

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who are maybe newer to the bank, what it means to live those values

207
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and how it looks so they will
have the same answer to what is the

208
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great day it looks like, maybe
not exactly the same, but feel the

209
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.080
same things are important to them in
a great day. How do you think

210
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about, like where does that fit? Is that something you have to leave

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aside for HR to write the manual, or is that become a part of

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the you know, part of the
process of defining the brand. It's it's

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such an interesting, you know thing
that kind of sit at this intersection of

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like what the brand is trying to
be from marketing point of view, and

215
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what the operating teams are trying to
generate from a processes and procedures point of

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view. I'm curious how you think
about navigating that intersection. I think it's

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a it's a really collaborative effort.
You know, if HR is trying to

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do it on their own, I
don't know that it's always necessarily going to

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spread across the organization. So you
need to have your leadership really living it

220
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out and willing to talk about it. And for us on the marketing side,

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it's any time that we can include
some of those brand values in especially

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written copy. So we use Viva
Engage, which is internal for us,

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00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:33.960
and we have you can create different
communities for different types of communications. So

224
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one of the communities we have is
called Cheers for peers, and so all

225
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.440
employees can post on there like kudos
to this slender go went out of their

226
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way to help a customer and you
know that sort of thing. And so

227
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anytime that marketing posts, a lot
of times we'll try to say, hey,

228
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kudos to so and so because they
are carrying banker and we have a

229
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pneumonic for care and yeah, and
so we just really latch onto that sort

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of word and trying to write that
throughout the copy and then explaining like here's

231
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what a Cairen banker is. And
we also were doing we do videos,

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we do weekly meetings, virtual meetings, and again just trying to weave it

233
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into some of that stuff to make
sure people kind of understand, like,

234
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well, why do we do what
we do well. It's a big part

235
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of our mission, it's part of
our vision to live this way. And

236
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our training team too has collaborated very
closely with marketing. When they start to

237
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bring people in, we do like
a kind of a culture day, so

238
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.879
get to know Horcom banks culture,
how we speak and how we relate to

239
00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.519
one another and take care of our
customers, that sort of thing. And

240
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so they have built out different presentations
just about Okay, here's who we are

241
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in the community. This is how
community views us. There's certain expectations of

242
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Horkcom bankers out there that we do
give of our time and we take time

243
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to help others, and so doing
that right off the bat, I think

244
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sets an expectation. But then marketing
has to kind of well everyone, but

245
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I think marketing has a special role
to play in explaining and bringing that up.

246
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.839
And again just like weaving it through
the story, this is who we

247
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are and who we say we are, and look all these people are living

248
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:23.279
it out. So you've mentioned twice
now in your answers great collaboration with other

249
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:30.319
groups, right, the Innovation Officer, the HR and internal teams. How

250
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.440
do you do that? Like maybe
not tactically, but like I feel like

251
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.839
so many places I hear, well, it's hard to collaborate. We don't

252
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.240
have a great you know, people
don't get along, and there's kind of

253
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.640
two sides of the fence and there's
trains running on different tracks or pick your

254
00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:47.440
metaphor of the day for we're not
well aligned and people don't listen. And

255
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I'm curious if you have advice or
things you think make you guys effective at

256
00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:53.880
that collaboration, because I feel like
so many the answers come down to,

257
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like, when you collaborate, well, it just kind of works. And

258
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yeah, so the question we go, well, how do you how do

259
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.680
you build a culture or how do
you as an individual kind of foster that

260
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.599
collaborative spirit and engagement because I hear
a lot of places where it doesn't work,

261
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:07.960
and so I kind of want to
learn the lessons like how do you

262
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.880
are are there tis pro teps on
how you make that actually be the way

263
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.960
people work? I think I think
a big part of it is up to

264
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the individual to go into each conversation, each interaction just very open minded.

265
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You know, there's a lot of
times where I'll be asked something, Hey,

266
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marketing should do this, and you
know, it's really easy to look

267
00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:32.680
at your plate and be like,
well, let's I can't fit it.

268
00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.240
It's not going to work. And
instead, if you go into that conversation

269
00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:37.480
and just start to start to ask
like, well, what is it you

270
00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.559
need to accomplish or what's what's the
pain point here and being open to that.

271
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Sometimes maybe it isn't a marketing function, maybe it's somewhere else. But

272
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if I can help you figure out
what that is and I can help support

273
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it in some way, I'm there
for it. And I think that it

274
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has to be an individual mindset in
a lot of ways. But I think

275
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you have to see that model,
you know, at every level, right

276
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.200
like you need to see it modeled
across senior leadership. If they're not collaborating,

277
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the rest of us really aren't either, you know, and every manager

278
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has got to be able to show
each other respect, you know, when

279
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you disagree, but just really be
open to listening. I think there's been

280
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multiple times where I go in with
with the thought process of either this is

281
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how this is going to work,
or this is not going to work,

282
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and kind of checking that at the
door and being like, there's something going

283
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.880
on here that I really don't know
anything about its surface level for me,

284
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and I need to understand a little
bit deeper so that we can all be

285
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better off in the end. That's
a fascinating answer, and it reminds me

286
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.319
of there's this saying I here.
Sometimes in the tech world, usually we're

287
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.960
talking about some features some product just
seems like help build that, and this

288
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.119
is the answer, like who the
hell built that? And why? Is

289
00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.880
usually a very thoughtful, intelligent person
considering a tradeoff you have not yet encountered,

290
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.519
and you go, oh, why
did you? And they go giving

291
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.079
answer and you go, oh yeah, oh that yeah, okay, Now

292
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:11.359
maybe maybe I would have like now
I'm struggling with why that's the wrong answer,

293
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.160
and that attitude of like coming in
not what kind of idiot built this

294
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.920
thing? This is so stupid,
Like hey, you asked me for this

295
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.599
thing, and now I'm like,
I'm trying to understand why you think this

296
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.720
is right, or why you did
what you did, why you built the

297
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.799
thing this way, why you have
too many things in an alf that don't

298
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.519
make any sense? Like how did
we get there? Is often a better

299
00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.720
approach than like, no, way, that's not the way we do it.

300
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:34.640
That doesn't work. Whatever you're got
to commit that of the mind.

301
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I love that. I love that
answer in general. I know another area

302
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.960
you are really passionate about is kind
of internal communications, how we communicate our

303
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:48.440
message across employees and teams, trying
of related to the collaboration, but talk

304
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.039
to me about how you kind of
deliver that message and make sure it's it

305
00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.240
gets hurt and understood throughout the organization. Yeah, we've you know, as

306
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a as an organization, I would
see in the last like two iss years,

307
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.240
we've really tried to increase communication and
just be very very transparent. Not

308
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.119
that we weren't before, but we
have more avenues to do it now,

309
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.200
so we use Viva Engage. We've
put a lot of messaging out there.

310
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.039
We're trying to get away a little
bit from email all the time because things

311
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:23.599
do get lost, and I think
sometimes it's really tempting to be like,

312
00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.960
oh, Grace of Marketing sent that
I'll look at it later. It's really

313
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.960
easy, and I get it.
I get it, I understand. But

314
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.799
you know, we want we want
a culture of I think a culture of

315
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:42.160
curiosity too, that people are able
to go out and find information that they're

316
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.440
looking for, that it's right there
at their fingertips. So we've created different

317
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.079
communities and Viva Engaged to be able
to do that kind of segment out the

318
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.920
communication. But one thing we did, oh man, this was about a

319
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.279
year or so ago, we started
creating. I think we called it Porcome

320
00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:02.960
Bank News, and it was just
maybe five to ten minute little videos that

321
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:04.880
we would put out on be the
Engaged. You could watch them anytime,

322
00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:12.359
and it was typically my self interviewing
a senior manager a department that had a

323
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.000
big project going on that they wanted
to make sure everybody understood, and then

324
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:22.160
we would follow up that communication with
either more posts or different information on our

325
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.480
Internet. So it was just sort
of cross posting that in different channels and

326
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.759
also in different media because people do
learn and consume differently. So if you're

327
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.720
somebody who needs to hear it,
I want to make sure it's recorded or

328
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.240
on a video. If you're somebody
that would prefer to read it, I've

329
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.680
got to make sure that that's available
to you too. How do you get

330
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.839
internal teams comfortable getting on video?
Like I feel so many times like this

331
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.720
is nervousness around a video two of
us going to the whole company going O,

332
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.400
don't know what I mean. I'm
very used to it, so I

333
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.680
sometimes go turn the camera whatever,
but people will get nervous about feel like

334
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.240
I'm going to say something stupid or
whatever. Like how do you think about

335
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.960
getting people comfortable sharing their message,
not just you posting. That's easy,

336
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.759
but I think there's a lot of
authenticity that comes from having the people doing

337
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:08.720
the work coming on and saying,
hey, here's what we're at, or

338
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.920
here's what we're doing, or here's
what's happening in our world. And that

339
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:17.519
really feels like connecting the broader organization, not just a marketing channel. But

340
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.599
how do you get people comfortable doing
that and putting in the time that's required

341
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.599
to actually sit down and do that. I feel like that can sometimes be

342
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.119
a roadblock for this. It can, it can, and I think it

343
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.799
was for us for a long time. People really tried to avoid it.

344
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:34.759
There was every reason why you shouldn't
record with Grace. But one thing that

345
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:41.000
helped was our he's now our president. He said, you know, told

346
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.720
this team like you will do this, And he was starting to assign like

347
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:48.720
certain dates if there was sort of
a date open and so you know,

348
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.400
the head of lending is going to
talk to you on this date, or

349
00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:55.599
how do retail is going to talk
to you on this date. But for

350
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.440
me, what I found was,
you know, finding a time that worked

351
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:03.160
for them, making it feel like
it wasn't an imposition to have to do

352
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:11.440
this was big. And then before
hitting record, just taking like ten minutes

353
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.039
to sort of say, Okay,
what do you think employees need to know?

354
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.279
And how can I make sure that
I ask a good question to get

355
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.240
that answer from you, and start
of almost practicing the interview, which I

356
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.160
know a lot of people are like, oh, it feels too rehearsed.

357
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.839
Well, it really helps your guests
to feel that much more comfortable. And

358
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.039
when it's internal like that. You
know, some people they were writing out

359
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:38.640
scripts and I was like, it's
you don't okay like the first time,

360
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.000
but then then we would do it
a second time. Hey, why don't

361
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:47.720
we just talk like we're having a
conversation. And I think, you know,

362
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.759
a lot of employees really enjoyed it. They enjoyed seeing their senior leadership

363
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:57.480
give this kind of feedback and explanation
and it does feel very transparent and real.

364
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.279
And for some of those senior leaders
they talk a little bit above what

365
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:08.000
are most of our employees can understand. So having a second person on to

366
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.279
say, okay, so what you're
saying is and then sort of rephrasing it,

367
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:18.279
I think helped understanding a lot.
Yeah, there's a there's a lot

368
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.440
more that goes into that interviewing and
making sure you break down what's being said

369
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.920
into the proper level for your audience
of like context understanding, or often I

370
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.759
find backing up to like give me, give me the big picture, because

371
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:30.960
you're you know, you're you're talking
in the weeds, and I want to

372
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.720
know, like, you know,
how that ties to the mission or the

373
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:37.400
goals for the quarter, or the
goals for the year, or what we're

374
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.640
trying to do in ways that you
can when you're talking about a project and

375
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.279
get lost. So there's some art
and making those connections, and I love

376
00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:48.240
the natural style. It's great.
I think it's great that you get people

377
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:51.000
there because I do feel like it's
so different when it feels like you're reading

378
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.200
a script into a teleprompter and then
you have videos, you know, a

379
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.240
little intro and outro, and it
feels like a TV ad, which is

380
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.759
very different than feeling like, Hey, I sat in and listen to people

381
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.599
having a conversation and they're just talking
the way they would in a meeting or

382
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.839
stopped them at the lunch and have
lunch with them and they go I think

383
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.960
that it's got a much more natural
feel to it that people connect with.

384
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.480
So as we talked about recording with
Grace, I understand you also started a

385
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.559
podcast. Talk to me about why
why why? Why does one I get

386
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.039
asked that question, like why why
does it like a career transit. I

387
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.880
actually got asked ones, yes,
it's your next career transition now especially,

388
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:29.279
But talk to me about the thought
process behind getting into the podcast business.

389
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.720
Yeah, so the podcast that has
been something that we have toyed with for

390
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.839
a while. You know, it's
been a few years of talking about it.

391
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.720
And again, our president, our
current president was head of marketing at

392
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.799
one point, so this was sort
of an idea that he had had for

393
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:47.200
a while and he enjoys podcasts,
and years like this would be really cool.

394
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:51.079
And I remember being super resistant because
I was like, yes, it

395
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:55.119
would be cool, but we have
no plan and I don't know how to

396
00:26:55.160 --> 00:27:00.680
do it. Another feeling I know
that feeling very well. So we eventually

397
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.519
we kind of sort of stumbled upon
actually a partner called podcast Town that's in

398
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:11.359
Milwaukee area, and they do all
the recording, the editing, the publishing,

399
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.279
all of the stuff that we didn't
know how to do. And they

400
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.160
were even better than that. They
helped us just sort of think through all

401
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.799
the thoughts that we had understand and
really define like who is the audience that

402
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:27.119
we want to make sure is understanding
this information, getting this information from us?

403
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.519
What kind of guests do we want
to have on here? And talking

404
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.279
through like that run of show and
having a partner to be able to do

405
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.400
that made me feel a lot more
comfortable. Like my type. It was

406
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.000
like, Okay, I have a
plan, I can I can do this.

407
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.440
I can make this work, you
know, And from early on I

408
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.160
was like, please please let me
host because this is fun to me.

409
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:55.720
You were interesting, yes, I
was, Yeah, I love the storytelling

410
00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:56.839
side of it. You know.
We bring in a lot of guests,

411
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:02.279
a lot of them who haven't done
podcasts before, and they're just on to

412
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:06.440
tell the story of their business.
So our podcast is banking on business and

413
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:11.559
it tells the story of different entrepreneurs
or partners of entrepreneurs who offer a lot

414
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.519
of advice, usually from their own
experience, and so being able to just

415
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:22.559
talk to people about what they've experienced, talk to them about their story of

416
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.319
their business, which a lot of
times is like your child, right,

417
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:30.759
like this is something I raised up
and grew and into. Yeah. Yeah,

418
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.680
so much pride in that, and
so very early on I was like,

419
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.960
you can put any co hosts you
want, but if I could please

420
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.440
be a part of the storytelling,
I would love that. And luckily they

421
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:48.000
said that was okay, So that's
very cool. It is interesting. I

422
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.000
find that with the right agency and
support, it really doesn't take much more

423
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.400
than a little confident as a host. It took me six or seven episodes

424
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.359
before I felt like I had a
rhythm where I went okay, I kind

425
00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:00.519
of like I kind of I was
trying to over prepair and then go,

426
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.759
I don't even know what And now
I'm you know, you feel much more

427
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:04.920
comfortable and like, you know,
kind of know how the rhythm goes and

428
00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:07.519
how to how to how to get
to where you would you want to be.

429
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.359
But that's a that's an interesting that
you were younger. I think you

430
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.319
should also. I went, really, okay, I'm not I'm not looking

431
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:17.920
for it. Yeah, do you
ever go back and listen to your early

432
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.319
episodes and go, what please?
Don't anybody you know? And if I

433
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:22.559
were really dedicated to being good at
it, I know that I was.

434
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.480
It's like watching game tape, but
I can't stand to hear my voice.

435
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.839
So this is the only time I
hear the podcast is my kids know this,

436
00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.960
and so sometimes in the car they
put it on just to a name.

437
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.359
I hear the intro welcome to Leaders, I'm like, what did you

438
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.039
guys? Turn that off? So
I can't stand to It's just I'm not

439
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:44.799
ready for the criticisms I will have
for myself. So I'm like, you

440
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.559
hear about the actors who want watching
themselves on the screen. I can't listen

441
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:49.920
to the podcast, but I'm gonna
get your take on this. I had

442
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.359
an idea for a podcast it's not
too dissimilar from yours in some ways that

443
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.400
I'm not not up doing. I'm
like, I could do that podcast.

444
00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:57.640
Yeah, in mine. I didn't
have a name for you yet. I

445
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:02.480
had some inappropriate names my mind,
but I wanted to bring on entrepreneurs or

446
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:06.640
executives and ask them only about the
biggest mistakes they've ever made. The like,

447
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:08.519
oops, I just killed the bit, you know, because I feel

448
00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:14.279
so much for entrepreneurs in particular,
there's kind of like this fear and there

449
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:15.720
can be the impression that everybody else
is doing it great, and you're just

450
00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:19.000
messing up because you know, what's
it gonna say. You only read other

451
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.440
people's press releases, but you know, you see, you get the picture

452
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.519
from other businesses of what they tell
the reporter, but then you go into

453
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.759
ligature internals and go their internals look
like yours. It's just that they don't

454
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.039
go tell the report of that,
and so it's a very distorted view of

455
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.279
what other entrepreneurs or business owners are
experiencing. And I kind of want to

456
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.720
like give me just like the moment
where you thought, oh my god,

457
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:41.400
I'm gonna get fired. I just
killed the business. I'm like, I

458
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.079
blew it all up. Let's just
talk about just those, none of the

459
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.640
because somebody the podcasts that you could
bring on this successful entrepreneur, they tell

460
00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:49.599
about how they killed it, and
you go, well, tell me about

461
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.480
the time you almost killed it,
like almost destroyed the business, not not

462
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:55.599
really had a great time, Like, tell me about that, and let's

463
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.279
talk about those. I feel like
it would just demystify this sense. So

464
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.799
that was my like my brainstorm during
COVID. I was like, yeah,

465
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.440
this would be a fun thing to
do, just like that. I've got

466
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.359
a few of my career that I
could go into. So I thought I'd

467
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.079
just love to hear other people's like, oh my god, what did I

468
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:14.839
just do. I once interviewed a
popcorn business, so they do like small

469
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.839
batch popcorn, super delicious, and
one of the questions I just needed to

470
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.599
know, and I was like,
whether or not we keep this in the

471
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:26.279
podcast? What was the worst flavor
you've ever made? It's like, I

472
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.519
just find it interesting. It was
what was it? It was like a

473
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:36.400
boison berry or some kind of berry
that like just all the popcorn got super

474
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.039
soggy. She was like, I
had like twelve gallons of popcorn that it

475
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.640
was like mush, so it was
not good. I was like, cool,

476
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.559
Well, what did you learn?
Because I think that's the next step,

477
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:48.759
right, And she could tell me
that. She could say, well,

478
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.160
you know, here's what I learned
and here's what I didn't do next

479
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.079
time, And so I think it's
really bad. Best learning it's usually come

480
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.119
from from failures, not successes,
right, I did you learn more from

481
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:02.680
when things don't fly work out right? And sometimes we overlearned the lessons of

482
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.839
success because you think like it was
all the things you did that made a

483
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.440
success something. It's just caught a
caught lightning in a bottle kind of a

484
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.000
particular moment in time got lucky.
And then you go, oh, it's

485
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.559
because of X, Y and Z. I mean, is it Maybe it's

486
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.759
not, you know, and we
can we can overlearn those lessons where success

487
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:17.960
failure is a little more like clear, like this didn't work and this didn't

488
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:21.559
work. All right, Gris.
I got three questions I love to ask

489
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:25.359
everybody at the end of this podcast, so here we go. Number one

490
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.640
is what's the best career advice you've
ever gotten? Oh? I think the

491
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:36.480
best career advice I've ever gotten was
actually probably shortly before I started my career.

492
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:42.599
I had an advisor in college who
you know, we're very end of

493
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.000
senior year and I was excited about
wherever I was going next, and he

494
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:52.519
was like, here's the deal.
You are smart, and I think people

495
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:59.480
are going to assume you're smarter than
you are. Said, you're you're a

496
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:04.680
very still talk right there. Yeah, And he said the thing is with

497
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.000
that is that you you might be
afraid to ask for help, you might

498
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:13.319
be afraid to show them you don't
know something, And don't fall into that.

499
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:19.920
Don't be somebody who is so scared
to ask a question that you know

500
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.119
you make those mistakes simply because you
didn't ask, simply because you didn't listen.

501
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:29.119
And I've thought about that a lot, because I think I think a

502
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.319
lot of times when you're in a
position of leadership, if you are maybe

503
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.359
a high performer in your job,
even if you're not leading a team,

504
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:37.559
you start to get this mentality of
like, well, I can't I can't

505
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:42.440
act like I don't know that I
better. Luckily I have Google at my

506
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.839
disposal, so that helps a lot. But you know, there are people

507
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.400
I need to listen to, people
who know this industry a lot better,

508
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.039
and so I need to be willing
to hear that. So that's stuck with

509
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.759
me for a long time. I
love that one. I actually want to

510
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.880
post that is one of my superpowers
is the willingness to ask any question that

511
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.119
makes me feel stupid. Like I
think it's a total superpowers point. You

512
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:05.400
said you've seen them, like everybody
this industry must know that acronym, and

513
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:07.440
I have no idea what it means. Maybe I'm the idiot, but can

514
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.360
you just like walk me through that
one? And the number of times I

515
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:14.039
do that, and then three people
text me right for me, I thank

516
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.480
you for asking that I didn't know
that I know it. Well, how

517
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:20.360
come nobody asking? If nobody knows? Like I don't write, but like

518
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.559
that's a real power to be able
to do that. So I love that

519
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.880
answer cause I think it's it's so
true and so under such a simple skill

520
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.920
and so underappreciator, and it's value
that it's absolutely kind of unbelievable to me.

521
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:34.880
All right. Second question, what's
the best advice you've gotten about the

522
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:40.079
consumer banking industry of the banking industry
in general twelve years had I think?

523
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:45.679
I think forming a relationship with your
lending team, especially on the marketing side,

524
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:49.559
is huge, you know, having
their trust in you and what you're

525
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.360
doing, and again opening up lines
of communication. Our head of mortgage lending

526
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:59.920
is someone I've worked with for many
years, and just stopping in his office

527
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.480
and again asking questions when I didn't
understand something, or allowing him to just

528
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.719
over explain things to me because that's
something he enjoys. Which is fine.

529
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:13.880
I learn a lot, but just
giving that time and space to those relationships

530
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.960
is huge and it's going to it's
going to help you continue with that trust

531
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.199
down the road so that when you
say, Okay, here's here's where we're

532
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.760
going to spend our marketing budget.
It may not be the billboard that you

533
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:30.320
like because it's your picture up there, but it's here's the reasons why,

534
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.760
and then they can trust that in
you because you've built up that relationship with

535
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.199
them. I love that. I'm
imagining that this is part of why you're

536
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.719
able to talk about collaborations so much
because investing in those relationships early before it's

537
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:44.920
transactional nature, before you're come and
saying here's what I'm going to do for

538
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.760
you or not do for you,
It really leads to that I think ability

539
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:52.840
to have a collaborative environment and relationship. Great. Last question is what is

540
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:55.800
one bold prediction for the future.
We always like to put these into groups

541
00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.159
of bold Yeah, something we can
like, you know, come chat if

542
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.199
you got right or got it wrong, hold your feet to the fire when

543
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.119
you're going to be a repeat guest, that kind of thing. Super Bowl,

544
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:08.719
super Bowl winners to uh, you
know, federal reserve rate heights,

545
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:12.320
so you can take your pick on
where you want to do with this recession.

546
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.039
Never we get it, we'll get
all sorts of stuff. Man,

547
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.880
my bold prediction, I would say, well, I've got to I'm from

548
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:25.960
Wisconsin, so not that bold packers
season, don't don't expect a lot about

549
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:32.239
maybe bold prediction underestimate. I love
it's good. Yeah, But on the

550
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:37.039
banking side, I would say,
you know, especially again, I'm coming

551
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:43.280
from a community bank perspective, but
I think that community banks that aren't going

552
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:49.639
to that don't embrace FinTechs and and
fin technology that's that's coming, I think

553
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.000
that they are destined to fail.
And I think that they need to start

554
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:59.800
viewing that relationship not as competitive but
as collaborative because a lot of times these

555
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.960
text can help us and they can
help us serve our customers, and we

556
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.280
need to be willing to hear that
and start to think a little bit outside

557
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.360
of what we've always done as an
industry. We don't move quickly, but

558
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:16.000
we're going to need to start because
change is happening changes here, and so

559
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.519
who are those partners that are going
to help you change and adapt in a

560
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.679
way that your customers are expecting from
you know, I think that's a perfect

561
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:28.199
place to leave it. Grace,
thanks so much for joining me today.

562
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.079
I really appreciated the conversation. Yeah, this was a lot of fun,

563
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:35.840
Thanks for having me. Upstart partners
with banks and credit unions to help grow

564
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:40.119
their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a
modern, all digital lending experience. As

565
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.800
the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy, it only makes sense that their bank

566
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zero. Upstarts All Digital experience reduces
manual processing for banks and offers a simple

569
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and convenient experience for consumers. Whether
you're looking to grow and enhance your existing

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personal and auto lending programs or you're
just getting started, Upstart can help.

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that can help you find more credit worthy

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and servicing, It's all possible with
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about finding new borrowers, enhancing your
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by visiting upstart dot com Slash four
dash Banks that's upstart dot Com slash four

576
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:44.760
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Leaders and Lending from Upstart. Make sure

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