April 30, 2025

Winning the Battle for Primacy in Banking

Winning the Battle for Primacy in Banking
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With 97 percent of Americans already banked, acquiring new customers means convincing them to break existing relationships. So how can financial institutions stand out when banking feels increasingly commoditized?

Live from CBA 2025, host Matt Snow from Upstart is joined by Kurt Lin, Co-Founder and CEO from Pinwheel as well as Dennis Chira and Wei Ke from Oliver Wyman to tackle the question: “How do we create a 2x, 5x or even 10x better experience that delivers genuine value to customers?”

From leveraging direct deposit switching to power seamless onboarding to designing subscription management services that truly simplify financial lives, discover how next-gen technology and open banking solutions are reshaping the fight for loyalty. Tune in to learn how banks, credit unions, and fintechs can differentiate on more than just price—building deeper relationships and winning in the battle for primary account status.

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Hey everyone, Matt Snow from Upstart with another episode of

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Leaders in Lending live from CBA twenty twenty five here

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in Orlando. Today, I'm joining with Dennis and Way from

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Oliver Wyman and Kurt from Pinwell. Thank you guys for joining. Yeah, absolutely,

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maybe we can go down the line with quick introductions.

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Tell me a little bit about what you're doing today.

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Yeah. My name is Dennis Tchura.

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I'm a principal in our retail business making practice at

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Oliver Wyman. I focus primarily on consumer financial needs as

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well as deposits.

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And my name is Wake I'm a partner with Oliver

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Wyman retovininess banking practice. I do a lot of work

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on product proposition, innovation, pricing, sales marketing.

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And I'm Kurtlin. I'm copeender and CEO of a company

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called Pinweel. We help built soffward to make it easy

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for bings to win and establish primacy. So things like

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making it easy to switch your drive deposit, help manage

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your bills, eventually switch your bills, et cetera, et cetera.

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Great, and so I sat in on the session earlier

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the three of you were a part of. In terms

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of primacy and defining that in how it's important and

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how to help banks establish that. So I was thinking,

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you know, maybe I'll start a little bit more provocative

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and like, is primacy even important today if you think

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about open banking and the choice consumers have, Like, is

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that still a goal worth pursuing for a financial institution.

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I mean, I'm happy to start on that one. I

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think that's a really fair and important question, and I

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think the answer generally is yes. But then also depends, right.

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I think there's an option where you don't need that

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relationship right, where instead you just focus on as cost

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effectively as possible selling a particular product. But then you

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become a pure commodity. And I think that the real

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question when it comes to primacy is how much of

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the value do you want to actually create that is

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not simply about a commodity. How much of it's actually

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about serving the needs of a consumer more holistically, how

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much of it's about your brand about basically your value

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is about other things that you provide to the customer,

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wherein you know, the decision of whether or not to

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choose to work with you isn't just about the price,

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it's about something else.

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Yeah, yeah, fair, Yeah, I think there's a there's a

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math question here because at Dennis in the earlier session

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was mentioning that maybe like ninety seven percent of the

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Americans are actually banked. So at the end of the day,

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you know, the banks are out there and the fintech's

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out there essentially stealing each other's clients, and primacy is

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a way of deepening that relationship, and really, you know,

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that's that's what's probably going to food of growth going forward.

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Yeah, I think it's hugely important. And the way I

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think about it is you're trying to build a relationship

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with that customer and ultimately get them into deeper and

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deeper into your ecosystem. Right, So the example I always give,

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I think actually Dentnis had mentioned earlier, is you look

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at Apple, right, like maybe you start with an iPod

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or an iPhone and then eventually, you know, you get

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a MacBook, then you get some air pods, and all

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of a sudden, like you're in this ecosystem where everything

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works fluidly because you really like bought into the brand

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ethos and the product suite, and as a bank, like

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it's a lot easier what should be a lot easier,

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I should say, if you have a credit card, a

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checking account, a savings account, hopefully even with a broken

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or something, all with the same FI instead of having

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one of those at four different places, because then they

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can really understand your holistic financial life and serve you better. Sure.

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Yeah, and that really resonated with me, along with many

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stats and the presentation. But thinking about the reduction and

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the number of banks, So if there are so so

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much fewer banks today and the consumers have choice, like

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what do they differentiate on besides yield? Like that's what

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consumers tend to shop, or like what are the other

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tangible things? Could a bank set itself apart to establish

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that progacy with a customer?

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Yeah, I can go first. I think it's largely what

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we talked about at the end of the session, which

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was when you think about, you know, how you really differentiate,

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You really have to think about how do I create

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a two x five x ten x better banking experience

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for that consumer. The reality is banking looks very commoditize

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these days, right, like per your point, unless you're like really,

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price sends it into I want to maximize my savings

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yield or I want to get you know, the most

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amount of points for a certain spend category. The reality

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is like when you can have a fundamentally different product,

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people get really excited. Right, So why thing that you

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know we focus a lot on is this idea of

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building subscription management? Right? Can I build a whole experience

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that you know, helps the customer understand what all my

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bills are, like find ones I didn't realize I was

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paying for, help me consolidate or find a better rate

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for something that I already you know, buy, and then

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kind of curate something that like nobody else is really

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able to do effectively. If you can do that and

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find those moments to make that happen, then I think

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you can really win.

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Yeah, and you mentioned the like mobile check deposit, like

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that was the last major thing I even remember as

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a consumer. Like this changes how I think about banking.

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But so would you say technology like what pinwheels developing

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or the things you talked about switching deposits, does that

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make up a bank stickier or does that just make

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it easier for people to switch and maybe you know,

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decrease again the need for privacy.

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Yeah, so I think of it as two classes of products.

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I think one is around customer activation and portability. That's

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things like a direct depositive switch or you know, switching

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your card on file, right, those things are inherently in

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service of making it easy to to switch and make

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your account more portable. Those I think will and hopefully

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it's a good thing that you're increasing competition, right so

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that people aren't stuck at the same place, because there's

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just like inertia, not wanting to switch, right even though

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they know there's a better product out there. And the

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other part is what I would call like more value creation,

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so like a subscription or bill manager that really helps

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you get a hold of your financial life, check all

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your bills, be able to pay them appropriately so you

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avoid late ps and what have you. That I think

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is like something that everybody should have. And it doesn't

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really make it, you know, make you want to necessarily

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hop from one place for another place. It's just something

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that every single FI should have in their making experience.

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Yeah, and you guys mentioned some stats around you know,

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why would people switch primary financial institution and seem to

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be between major life events or just being so disgruntled

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You're like, I never want to do business with this company.

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Again maybe like double click into that a little bit.

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What are some of those underlying causes of switching.

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I mean, I think the reality is when it comes

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to kind of the quote unquote primary checking account, the

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one where you're in come comes into and where you spend,

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there is a high level of stickiness there because it's

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sort of like electricity.

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You need it.

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You can't turn it off, right, you need to have

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it on. So there's a hesitancy to move that because

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you know there's friction. But you know, as Kurt mentioned,

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a lot of the technology that we see today is

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actually reducing that friction, making it easier to move, so

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that people, you know, have more choice. But at the

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same time, it isn't that important for most people. They're

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not thinking about it regularly. And I think the real

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challenge that the industry is facing in a sense is

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this idea where well, historically we always focus on acquisition,

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let's get the next account, let's grow right. But then

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I think there's a shift right now from you know,

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focusing on quantity to quality because quantity is churned mostly now.

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As why I mentioned ninety seven percent of Americans are banked, right,

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and so if you want to win the next customer

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to take it from someone else. And the the challenging

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part right now is to date because of the way,

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like a lot of large banks or banks in general

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are structured, like everything all the business kind of product

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lines are pretty independent, and so you as a consumer

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there there's limited actual value in terms of consolidating, right

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Why go to the same place when you see over there,

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there's an offer over there, an offer over there, And

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so people tend to go in that direction. But I

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think that's actually to the detriment in both the individual

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consumer and also to the provider, because there's a lot

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of waste, is the short of it.

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Yeah, yeah, And the other thing that that struck me

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you talked about you know, the goal should be again

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focused back on the consumer. So how do you become

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top of mind or that person they go to for advice?

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And it got me thinking again, like tend to reach

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for my phone, So like is the phone the new branch?

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So I have a question and I go to perplexity,

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Like I want to move money, like I open a

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certain app. I want to transfer money or pay someone

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back for a Broadway show ticket, like I use a

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different app, but like the phone, is like where I

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go first, and you know, is that what people expect

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to interact with their How do you think about, you know,

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who who is the consumer asking questions when it comes

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to their finances and is that still a traditional bank

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or who has that right for the consumer.

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So, you know, if we unpacked a little bit your question,

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there are a few things. One one is we know

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we've actually as a firm, we published some research on

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the gen Z population. Interestingly, we found in that research

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that the gen Z they don't respect you know, sort

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of authoritative figures and experts and such like I said,

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the don't want to listen to like the person that

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supposedly has the correct knowledge, right, so instead they listen

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to their peers, right, so they can go on TikTok

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And if you know, there's an influencer, so I think

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we should, you know, as financial institutions like kind of

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marketing to the next generation of customers. That is important

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whether you're a bank or a fintech. And just recognizing

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you know that they actually you know sort of almost

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like a peer pressure and stuff like, you know, there's

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the peer influence right for for how they actually make

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their financial decisions and that's important. The other thing I

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want to call out is the sort of the digital

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experience side of things, like because you were mentioned in

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the phone and if you pull up your mobile banking app,

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you know, ninety nine percent of the time it shows

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you a laundry list of accounts, and so from a

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behavioral science angle, if you see the accounts, you basically

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are checking balances and that's sort of the most sort

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of engaging thing that you could do with anybody's banking

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app today. But Kurt Worth mentioning that there's other ways

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of engaging with the customers that might actually get to

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a better definition privacy, because just checking your accounts is

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not really primacy. It's a very passive sort of activity

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to do, right, So I think a lot of the

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banks actually overlook, you know, how they actually serve their

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customers in the digital world.

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Yeah, that's a great point, and you guys also hit

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on maybe an appropriate balance of that in the industry

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is risk management. So, you know, how do you think

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about the view there in terms of, yes, be innovative,

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find ways to connect with your customers, but knowing that

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the health of the American economies like underpinned by this industry.

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That's certainly the foundation of banking.

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Right.

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This is a gathered deposits of privilege. Right, you need

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a charter to do it. It's considered to be basically

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a public good in anyways, and so I think on

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that end that that needs to stay right and this

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this industry is unique relative to all industries because of that.

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But that is not to say that there is not

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a better way to serve consumers. And I think that

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the challenge has a little bit been that it is

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expensive to basically take that next step.

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Right.

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I think there's a focus on, you know, how do

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I drive incremental like kind of progress in the near term.

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And there are some of these things that we're talking

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about here that are more forward looking in terms of like,

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you know, what are the needs that are unmet right

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now that I think that a lot of consumers actually want, right,

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because I think that if you ask consumers, are they

237
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satisfied with what they have? Yeah? Actually they are generally satisfied.

238
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That's why they're not moving too much. But do they

239
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actually do a bunch of things in order to just

240
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kind of curate their needs, Like you know, pick a

241
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.919
little bit account here, an account there, and mix it

242
00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.159
together and you know, serve their needs maybe as a

243
00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.000
household of you know, a couples for instance, Like yeah,

244
00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.200
plenty of people do that. And what that really reflects

245
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is that actually there's stuff that people are doing that

246
00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.919
they would love to have streamline for them if possible, Right,

247
00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:00.919
why not do one stop, Like if you're able to

248
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.159
actually do that in a way that creates more value

249
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for the customer, I actually think that there would be

250
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demand for that.

251
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Right, Building off of that, like to your earlier question

252
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around like you know, is there your phone the new branch? Right,

253
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.559
there's this thesis that existed for a long time in

254
00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.679
the industry around like building super apps, right, Like in China,

255
00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.039
there's all these examples of like there's one app that

256
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.039
does everything for you, right, and the fundamental like crux

257
00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.000
of it actually makes a ton of sense, right, Like

258
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.200
whether it was Mint or all these like first wave pfms.

259
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.120
Everybody would love to see a view of like my

260
00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:38.320
holistic financial life in one app, right, like my savings accounts,

261
00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.240
my brokerage accounts, all my investment accounts, my crypto accounts,

262
00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.080
Like I want to see everything in one place, and

263
00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.039
ideally it's like constantly helping me make more money, makes

264
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.440
more decisions, et cetera. Right, So, like, I don't think

265
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anybody disagrees with that dream. But I think the problem is,

266
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going back to your question, a lot of the large

267
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fis are structured to be risk management apparatus, right and

268
00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.320
right fully so, right, like you, when you are relied

269
00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.039
upon for society to operate, you really can't screw things up, right,

270
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Like the cost of that extremely high. So they're doing

271
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what they're supposed to be doing. But the downside of

272
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that is you don't have a culture of people are

273
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willing to take risks because like, if you just don't

274
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.159
mess anything up, you keep your job. Everybody wins. You

275
00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:21.039
take risks, they don't work out, You create like undue exposure,

276
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Things fall apart, people get in trouble. And so I

277
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think what you see is like that's why fintech exists.

278
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That's why companies like us exist, because we can be

279
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.840
that extended arm that helps you innovate, prove things out,

280
00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:33.720
and if it really works well, you can always bring

281
00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:34.200
it inside.

282
00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:34.440
Right.

283
00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:36.480
So, Like the example that always like to share is

284
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.279
like when you look at P to P payments, right,

285
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.840
there's menmo there's cash app, and they crushed for a

286
00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:43.559
long time, and then the banks are like, wait a second,

287
00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:45.639
like we should just create our own system, right, And

288
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.559
thus Zel was born, and like Zell does a ton

289
00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.080
of volume. People don't even realize how how much it proliferates,

290
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.519
and it's it's in every bank's app for the most part, right,

291
00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:57.200
And so I think like, if you can really prove

292
00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.399
something that works well, it will eventually get adopted device.

293
00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:01.639
And then like if you keep doing that thing over

294
00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.679
and over and over again, if you get another version

295
00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.679
of Azel or a tenex better bill pay thing or

296
00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.799
have you eventually do you think these large fis will

297
00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:12.120
start to be super apps? But it's just going to

298
00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.200
take a very long time because no one, no one

299
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.879
internally is innovating in the speed they need to.

300
00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:18.360
Yeah, well, and you guys did a good job also

301
00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:21.080
managing like the you know, the economic side of the

302
00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:23.679
city equation, right, because the cost of deposits is what

303
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:25.720
fuels a lot of the ability to lend, right, So

304
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.639
in a lot of other technology companies maybe the expense

305
00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:32.240
is different. Do you see that always being a part

306
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:34.360
of the equation here or again we've kind of gone

307
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:36.759
back and forth, and separating what should a bank do,

308
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:38.879
what kind of businesses should it be in, and separating

309
00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:43.120
those things, and regulation playing apart, Like is deposits always

310
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.039
going to be the best way to fund you know,

311
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.120
lending or do you see banks separating? And as you

312
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.600
were saying earlier, like maybe there's some commoditization necessary and

313
00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.200
someone just really good at doing a certain lending product

314
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.519
or someone's great at savings, and you know that the

315
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.080
market starts to break apart, our banks stay as the

316
00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:02.840
super app that you're talking about.

317
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.200
I mean, on the I guess I don't know if

318
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.600
I fully understand the question, but I mean, certainly there's

319
00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:12.679
I think one of the main challenges in banking, right

320
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:14.600
it's like kind of like the ironies, if you will,

321
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.720
is that a lot of the value that's created is

322
00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.240
through inertia, right, Like when we think about deposits, for instance,

323
00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.279
like why is there so much so much value is

324
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.960
created from deposits. Why Because it's a lower cost of

325
00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.759
funds for the rest of the bank. Right it funds

326
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.120
the balance sheet that otherwise if they had to get

327
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.559
through wholesale palk pro funding would be really expensive. But

328
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.759
there's this question also fundamentally is like is that actually

329
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:36.519
the right thing to do?

330
00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:37.080
Right?

331
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.360
And so, I mean you look at some of the

332
00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.639
lawsuits in the last year right on this topic. I

333
00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:44.240
want to name names, but right like the idea where hey,

334
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.240
consumer was misled in terms of the rate that they

335
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:47.639
were going to get in their deposits, they should have

336
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.840
gotten more look at that big gap. Well you can

337
00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.519
make that argument for a lot of institutions where you know,

338
00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:55.559
like people are being paid like low interest rates on

339
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.039
their savings. But there's like that that moves, right and

340
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.159
what drives that inner And then one of the things

341
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.759
technology has done, of course, is create this kind of

342
00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:08.240
more less information asymmetry. More people are aware of and

343
00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:10.960
easily aware what that information is, and so like should

344
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.039
that happen right on the flip side, like from a

345
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.840
regulatory standpoint, right, like that that's not great for consumers,

346
00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.360
But from a regulatory standpoint, you want kind of those

347
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:21.840
balances to be kind of lower cost and stable at least, right,

348
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:25.320
And so it's a it's a tricky thing in terms

349
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.559
of what the right balance is, but I definitely see

350
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:32.320
a shift inevitably where you know that inertia in a sense,

351
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.759
it's like kind of similar to that anchoring analogy that

352
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:36.799
I brought up during the session, where I think that

353
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:39.000
that anchor is getting later and later, right, Like, there's

354
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:40.960
just more that do more than that. You can't just

355
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:42.120
rely on inertia in the future.

356
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:43.519
Yeah, no, And I think you hit to the heart

357
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:45.039
of the question because the other part of that is,

358
00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:47.240
you know, the focus on fees, right, So if banks

359
00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.399
fundamentally have to earn less money on fees, like the

360
00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.960
only other way you know to do that is through deposits.

361
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:55.600
Or it can be through other things. I think, because

362
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.720
there is a question is are people willing to pay

363
00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.720
fees for other kind of sources of value? Like that's

364
00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.440
the real question, you know. And we can say what

365
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.279
we want about the last kind of administration in terms

366
00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.720
of you know, questions around fees, but like I mean,

367
00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.320
there was a considered push for you know, in a

368
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.519
pushing for innovation in a sense where it's like you

369
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.120
cannot in a sense still generate as much value from

370
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.440
kind of history. You need to create new value, right

371
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.799
to continue to do that. And that's a real tough

372
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.480
part where it's like are people going to be willing

373
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:26.399
to pay what are the people willing to pay for right,

374
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.440
because once something's free, it's very hard to you know,

375
00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:29.639
pay charge them for it.

376
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.759
But just on that note, what's interesting is if you

377
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.120
look at the difference between neo banks and FinTechs versus

378
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:39.399
traditional banks. In Chime, which is an example that's being

379
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.240
brought up, I mean, they were one of the first

380
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.159
to charge a monthly fee and people are willing to

381
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.120
pay for it. And at the time, they didn't really

382
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.559
offer you know, high interests or whatnot, like it was

383
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.080
like the whole whole value proposition was, you know, basically

384
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.440
to advance a paycheck and and that's something that people

385
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.279
needed and then they're actually willing to pay a fee

386
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.720
for whereas if you look at a big bank, it's

387
00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.039
a different sort of starting point where the majority of

388
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.440
the fees are not the monthly fees but rather you know,

389
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.319
overdraft than some of the other you know, kind of

390
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.119
the fees that are you know, in the previous administration

391
00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.839
that termed as more nuisance fees and and so so

392
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:15.920
I would say like this, the starting points are different,

393
00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.240
and the economics model was actually different between the bank

394
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.960
side and the fintech side, and it's actually pretty exciting

395
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.480
to see what kind of solutions they come up with.

396
00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.079
And in the in the session earlier, we we said

397
00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:28.920
there was no there was no unified It's not like

398
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.559
the whole industry is converging to one model of you know,

399
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.240
like there's here's one proposition to draw primacy. That the

400
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.559
FinTechs are actually coming up with different soclutions from the banks.

401
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.759
Even within the banks, they're coming up with different solutions. Yeah,

402
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.880
this is a really key point.

403
00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:44.319
I just want to make sure that we make hit,

404
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.440
which is like, yeah, uh, the banks are like the

405
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.720
og subscription products. People don't realize la they always charge

406
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.640
you monthly fees. It was used the didn't know it

407
00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.119
because it just like plopped into your like your transaction

408
00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:58.680
like flow. One day You're like, oh, it was ten

409
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:00.599
bucks this month, right, but like you didn't nobody really

410
00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:01.880
thought about it because you when when you write the

411
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:03.480
brandch by the way, we're going to charge your ten

412
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.559
bucks to service the account. Right, you just like got charged.

413
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.559
But like they've had subscriptions for a very very long time.

414
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.559
And the difference that ways language is really important is

415
00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.240
like there's two kinds of fees, right, there's uh pees

416
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.319
that fees that penalize you. And then there are fees

417
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:23.200
that like are value supported, you know you're paying for right,

418
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:23.799
And like.

419
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.240
The tallens though, is that like because of free checking

420
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.920
historically in the United States? Right, the expectation today from

421
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.680
a lot of consumers that like, oh, there's a fee,

422
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.079
but I'm gonna you know, that's gonna get waived. And

423
00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.079
that is true for the majority of large banks, right.

424
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.839
It's like a small percentage at least in the US

425
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.559
actually get charged that fee. And so like that's the

426
00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:43.480
part that's triggy where I think that there are very

427
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.160
few people in America today that are willing to pay

428
00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.640
for those very basic kind of services anymore because they

429
00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.039
believe that that should be free, just as free training

430
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:52.960
is free now. So the only way to be able

431
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.440
to charge fees where it's like more like a subscription model,

432
00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.400
right or remembers models like you've got to give them

433
00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.599
something else, right, And the real question is what could

434
00:18:59.640 --> 00:18:59.960
that be?

435
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:00.400
Right?

436
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.079
And I think that in the credit card will you

437
00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.200
see some of what that might look like? Right, Some

438
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.480
of the large credit card issuers, like they have certain

439
00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.359
models where hey, fees are part of the thing, and

440
00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:12.240
many of them have really tried to branch out where

441
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.319
they're not just doing credit card anymore. They have savings accounts,

442
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.519
they have checking accounts, and they're also doing the same

443
00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:20.839
thing as everyone else is doing, which is trying to know,

444
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.000
build that holistic relationship, right, because there's a lot of

445
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:24.640
value there.

446
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.279
But there is this concept that has been around for decades,

447
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.599
like value added checking accounts or like premium checking accounts

448
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.079
where you pay for a higher tier or you pay

449
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.160
a higher monthly fee or to get more products, right,

450
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.160
and so those perform extremely well, right, whether it's getting

451
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.319
access to like better interest rates, or like you bundle

452
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:46.720
in like ID theft protection, phone insurance, pet insurance, like

453
00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.759
triple A, et cetera. Like when you bundle it into

454
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:51.839
the checking account and you start to charge them, you know,

455
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.079
ten bucks a month instead of three bucks a month.

456
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.640
The consumers like, actually the math makes sense if I

457
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.160
don't have to pay a triple a somewhere else, it's

458
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.640
actually is like still a good deal for for me, Yes,

459
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.799
I'll do this, right, And so there's actually plenty of

460
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.200
ways that are good for the consumer, good for the FI,

461
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.880
good for the ecosystem where you can still charge the

462
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.799
consumer fees, and I think we have to get away

463
00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.599
from this idea of like like like fees are bad.

464
00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.160
It's just like the fees have to be worth it

465
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.640
to pay, right, Like you pay for Amazon Prime, Nobody

466
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.799
bats an eye at them. It's like forty bucks a month.

467
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.519
You're like, yeah, because I get my packaged tomorrow. Right,

468
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.240
It's like I'm totally worth it. Yeah, totally.

469
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:27.039
Well, I think we're running out of times, so maybe

470
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.359
we can end with you know, a bold prediction or

471
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:31.079
like if we were to meet again in five to

472
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:34.200
ten years, like who will be the winner in the

473
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.799
primary financial institution race, or a characteristic of that institution,

474
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.599
like what will have they gotten? Right?

475
00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.039
I mean I think that I think scale does matter

476
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.400
in this space, right, So I think the scale players

477
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.079
have a big advantage here, and that scale may be

478
00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.279
in terms of traditional banks, but also scale in terms

479
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:56.440
of you know, non banks as well. That that's there.

480
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.160
The country is over banks at the end of the

481
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.759
day in many ways, and so that's going to make

482
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:01.359
a big difference.

483
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.000
I think. So whoever can make the most of the

484
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.160
customer base they have and sustain.

485
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.640
And I think the number of banks will continue to

486
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.079
decline and credit unisill the kind that's sort of inevitable,

487
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.720
and so I think we'll see basically scale players really

488
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.440
trying to you know, win basically a bigger share of

489
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:15.440
their customer's wallet.

490
00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.519
Well, I agree with that point. I am actually pretty

491
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.759
excited with the way open banking has had it in

492
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.559
this country because unlike other jurisdictions like Europe and Canada, UK,

493
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.039
where open banking was sort of pushed by regulators as

494
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.720
more of a transparence like you know, kind of data sharing,

495
00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.200
kind of a mandate, there's a lot of innovation happening

496
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.880
in the US, you know, for for better or was,

497
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.759
there was a lack of a mandate from the government

498
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.119
to do things. And what that actually creates is as

499
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.279
a traditional financial services player continue to commoditize their products,

500
00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.799
the technology players can come in to create that customer experience.

501
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.640
And that's where the primacy you know question will be

502
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.359
answered than I think, you know, maybe five to ten

503
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.640
years down the road, we'll start to see true disintermediation

504
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.079
where the traditional players are still there to do the

505
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:12.119
risk management stuff, but the customer experience and you know,

506
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.039
where the mind share is, where customers actually turned to

507
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:17.559
is where the technology innovators are.

508
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.839
My het take, and it's definitely a hot take, is

509
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.480
that I think the big brands that have a lot

510
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.480
of brand equity with their customers will become increasingly more

511
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.000
like perceived as a financial service provider. So I'll give

512
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000
you a couple examples, right, Like, the the amount of

513
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:41.160
spend on Delta's American Express card is like equal to

514
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.880
one percent of the country's GDP. It's crazy, right, And

515
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.880
that's a co branded card. And so you see this

516
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.960
massive movement now of like if as a brand, I

517
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.400
can monetize on my customer because of my relationship, but

518
00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.119
then and they trust me, I can get some of

519
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.559
the entertained, it's a big revenue stream for me. Right, Like,

520
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.039
you start to see a lot of other brands trying

521
00:22:58.039 --> 00:22:59.680
to replicate that model because the're like, well, if Delta

522
00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:01.400
can do it, why can't I do that?

523
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:01.720
Right?

524
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:03.559
And the other one is like, we just announced a

525
00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:06.359
partnership with DoorDash where they're basically trying to take all

526
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.480
of their dashers and like create a bank and a

527
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.480
whole set of like financial services dedicated to what they need,

528
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.200
which is not the same thing as what a chase

529
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:16.200
can provide for example, right, And so I think whether

530
00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.880
it's because you have a special like set of data

531
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.680
and ways to like understand your customer, or you're just

532
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.000
a brand that has like, like I don't understand why

533
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:26.960
Airbnb or Nike or some of these brands have a

534
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:29.759
lot of like affinity like aren't moving faster or to

535
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.000
create more like financial products for their customers because they

536
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.000
would crush it, right, And I think that that is

537
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:36.440
starting to happen and trying to see a lot of

538
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.880
these companies really start to like create their own like

539
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.279
financial product suites and that will only continue to grow.

540
00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:43.400
Yeah, very interesting.

541
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:43.640
I like that.

542
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:45.319
It's almost like, you know, what's old is new again.

543
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.119
A lot of credit unions start that way, right, like

544
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.799
a common membership goal and create financial services geared towards them.

545
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.759
So that could be an interesting take.

546
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:53.640
Cool.

547
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:55.200
Well, thank you all for the time. Really enjoyed the

548
00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.519
session and the chat today, so hope you enjoy the

549
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:58.039
rest of the show.

550
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.039
The huge thanks for having us since

551
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:03.200
At